Yacht value evaluation principle - right or wrong?

I'll try to qualify my dillema,
Now that's the catch,
If I try assesing the motors for instance I find that a rebuilt CAT 3208 in the range of 375 to 420 HP with 0 hours can be obtained for somewhere around $10,000. Well now the thing is that the electronics can be renewed and installed for about let's be genrous exagerate and say another $10,000.
a 15 Kw new ONAN 120/240, Ill go all out another $10,000. Pumps and other moving mechanical equipment.....$10,000 more installation work of the motors another crazy $10,000. The price for the other items seems so exagerated that it should include installation work....so my total until now is around $60,000 and I have pretty much brand new equipment save for the rebuilt engines. I'll add $5,000 for a reduction gear shaft and propellers just so I have that section covered also. I'm up to $65,000
So now what....how much is the hull and wooodwork going to cost?
A rerigirator, W/D, garbage dispoal, TV, A/V and some work on the AC....another $5,000 so now I'll be institutionalized for throwing away money.
I'm now at $70,000 with pretty much new equipment all around except the hull, superstructure and woodwork.
So what would a decent 56' Angel fiberglass hull be worth.
The electrical wiring will always be an enigma unless thoroughly verifed if that's even possible.
Now assuming that the conditions of two boats with respect to the above list is similar and the difference rests in the hull superstructure and woodwork....
one is smaller but newer, another is made of steel (wood hulls are not being considered at this time)
I've seen an offer of a brand new 34' fiberglass hull ranging around $37,0000
now how would it compare with a 20 yr old 56' one?
I've seen a 1996 38' boat with two CAT 420 HP 100 hrs at asking price 120000 as opposed to a 1989 56' boat with two 375 HP 950 hrs and some dampness coming in through the skylight in the upper living room which led to changing of carpets and wood stairs and other little things broken here and there.
Evidently all the systems in the newer boat are in much better condition so what prevails - the extra bedroom or the better maintenance? and if the latter....by how much?
Dizzily yours,
A

Got it - now to the selection - what do you recommend?

A Yugo in your uncle's garage has quite another. If you want to own a boat first figure out your budget, then narrow it down to a style, then a manufacturer or two, then a model or three. Finally look for the best one of those you can find and afford, buy it and throw the rest of your money into the hole.

I like your style CAPT,

Well, now that you put it this way here's is a simple one for all of you helpful 'Guys and Dolls' (I loved Damon Runyon)

What would you recommend to someone who has (give or take) $100,000 in the piggy and is thinking about a yacht to live on - comfortably, be able to entertain the good old mistress, conduct a business meeting once in a while, bring the kids (all boys) on with some of their G friends occasionally so they can be and do all of that between throwing some more green into the black hole and hours in the engine room, 'soup diving' under the bottom crawling to check the bilge and if any energy is left then get some workout done on the beach so I can be fit for some BJJ or J randori.
To the extent that I can narrow it down: Motor or motor-sailer?
Marine Trader Hatteras or Mattheus or something similar? 45' to 56'
Any and all words of wisdom will be, as usually highly appreciated,

With the first issue clarified and on to the second
I remain thankful for your patience,
Alf

Hi CAP...Me suggesting something like this??? Not in a million years. I may be nuts at times but my mama had no fools for sons.
Besides, I am employing a Hebrew notion that says in free translation:
" FROM ALL MY TEACHERS i HAVE LEARNED" IN Hebrew it looks like this:
"!מכל מלמדי השכלתי"
Any way here's what I got out from this exchange with all the guys and dolls that were king enough to oblige and waste some of their valuable time on a "young would be sea wolf" like me.

From Marmot:
The wonderful way of expressing his relationship:
“I am owned by an 80s vintage 48 foot TT and it also has originally installed double 30A inlets on each side that have never been converted to 50A as have some of the fleet…….”
And his great warning”: Famous last words….”

From Pascal:
“It's not a must have modern thing... look at most decent 50ish boats even from the 70s, they are 50amp power. Hatteras for one, Bertram, etc...”
“It's hard to put numbers line by line on the value of a boat... i think that you are overcomplicating things in your first post…”
“ yes, as you narrow your choices to a short list, you can compare similar boats by putting numbers on things like engines, genset, canvas, etc...”
“as to the Angel 54 or 56, I think the guy who's asking almost 200k here in the US for an over 20 year taiwan boat is kidding himself...”
“This is why when you're buying an older boat, you are better off paying a little more and getting something which has already been upgraded, refurbished, restored than a boat in need of work even if it's cheaper. All that new stuff is worth 30 to 50% less the minute you write the check...”

From: K1W1
A Motor Sailer is more of a hassle to move alone if you are going to use the sails but it is also a good way to get your boys involved in sailing the boat.
A Motor Boat is the simplest way to go being simple to operate short handed and will probably have more internal volume compared to a similar sized motor-sailer.

Viceroy – Richard:
His: Ten Percent Rule (upheld by the NYCAP)
“Never spend more than 10% of your net worth on a pleasure boat.
Whatever the price, budget 10% of that cost, annually, just to keep it afloat.
Purchase a boat at least 10% less in length than you figure you need.
Purchase a boat at least 10% newer than the boat you are considering.”
“If a live-aboard, I might be inclined to up the first line up to 25% of your net worth...but not alter the others.”

From JWY:
“Angel Marine was one of the manufacturers of a class of yachts that has affectionately become know as TTs, Taiwanese Tubs. Big roomy boats great for live-aboard and coastal cruising with all of the standard flaws that come with TTs.Critical in your decision making process is an independent, qualified surveyor, one for the hull and equipment, and one for the engines and generator. On TTs (Taiwanese Trawlers/Tubs), I frequently recommended an additional electrical surveyor. You will want your hull surveyor to have extensive experience with TTs so that he will know their inherent weaknesses and how the particular vessel compares to the sisterships. Ditto for steel hulls which should require audiogauging. Make sure your surveyor is experienced with the particular manufacturer of the yacht he is surveying.”

From Capt J:
“You're much better off looking at a 53' Hatteras MY or similar quality boat for the same money, Much better build quality and systems.”
“Taiwan boats from that era have downright scary electrical, poor metal quality both stainless steel and things like fuel tanks, blisters can also be a big issue, as well as other problems.

From the NYCAP:
More the I can quote here so I’ll just bring one or two pearls.

“Definitely a depreciating asset. A mistress is the only faster way to get rid of money. There are guides to value such as BUC, but it's very much a matter of passion.”
“The average boat, if it still exists after 20 years probably depreciates close to 90% when you consider inflation. HOWEVER, certain names, models will only go down about 70% if cared for. The larger the yacht, the more likely it is to receive the care needed to maintain their value and even increase in value (given inflation, refits and upgrades) for 50 years or more, but over those years several times the initial cost will be spent on it.”

So, in no particular order – some of - my conclusions from all of this are that for my needs:

1) I should look for, ideally, a Matthews or Hatteras or something similar above 50’;
2) If I should even consider a Taiwanese then utmost care should be paid to the Electrical system and in general preferably I should regard them as second choice;
3) That the 50 a electrical system is not a negligible issue as is the availability of 240/120/24/12 V system;
4) Not to even consider building something by myself –at this stage;
5) A Motor Sailer I a compromise;
6) To budget around “THE 10% GOLDEN RULE”;
7) That a 20 yrs old boat is really obsolete but its worth and value depends on and derives from the over the years and is sensitive to:
“QUALITY OF MAINTENANCE+INVESTMENT IN UPGRADING+MY NEEDS AND WANTS”
8) The sequential order in which I should conduct the negotiation.
9) That I should be prepare to be owned;
10) That BOAT means ‘bringing over another thousand’ but my gut tells me that with the right attitude and attention it also means “Best Of All Times”.
It only remains to find a way to overcome the problem of the extra expense of transportation to the Eastern Mediterranean and of course the most important thing to find the boat.
That’s it for this time around.

As to you NYCAP, By knowing about “The coming of the Russians” I indicated that we are of similar ‘manufacturing era’, The missing note is not really missing and that a Sea wolf like you is using some high-tech originating expression like ROTFLMAO instead of innovating the ROTDLMAO or depending on the circumstances LMASAFITW or LMAOFITW.
Cheers,Skol,Nazdarovie,Le-Chaiim
With the coming holidays Wishing y’all the B.O.A.T. ( “Best Of All Times”).
Yours,
Alf

European boat equivalent to 53' Matthews or Hatteras boats?

Hello one and all,

Does any of you wise ‘Guys and Dolls’ know or can recommend a European boat equivalent to the a/m Matthews or Hatteras boats?

In tribute to my mentors I'm bringing my conclusions here hoping that the cncise list may serve others considering becoming "live aboards" and maybe save someone some time.
Upon having learnt from (in more or less alphabetical order) CAP J, JWY, Marmot, NYCAP, Pascal, Viceroy and W1k1 that...in no particular order – some of - my conclusions about how to buy a boat suitable to my needs should be:

1) I should look for, ideally, a Matthews or Hatteras or something similar above 50’;
2) If I should even consider a Taiwanese then utmost care should be paid to the Electrical system and in general preferably I should regard them as second choice;
3) That the 50 Amp electrical system is not a negligible issue and so is the availability of 240/120/24/12 V system;
4) Not to even consider building something by myself –at this stage;
5) A Motor Sailer I a compromise;
6) To budget around “THE 10% GOLDEN RULE”;
7) That a 20 yrs old boat is really obsolete but its worth and value are sensitive to depend on and derive from the over the years:
“QUALITY OF MAINTENANCE+INVESTMENT IN UPGRADING+MY NEEDS, WANTS + POCKETS DEPTH”
8) The sequential order in which I should conduct the PURCHASE PRICE negotiation.
9) That I should be prepared to be owned;
10) That BOAT means ‘Bringing Over Another Thousand’ but my gut tells me that with the right attitude and attention it also means “Best Of All Times”.

It now remained only to find a way to overcome the problem of the extra expense of transportation to the Eastern Mediterranean and of course the most important thing to find the boat.
That’s it for this time around.

And this brings me back to the idea that opened this string i.e. asking in this message…..
Does any of you wise ‘Guys and Dolls’ know or can recommend a European boat equivalent to the a/m Matthews or Hatteras boats?

Thankfully yours,
Alf

Dear Forum Admin,

First, I'll begin by apologizing for any wrong doing that I may have done.
Second, I am not aware if the internal personal structure of THE FORUMS site and do not understand the ramifications of starting a new thread beyond the cumbersome result of multitude threads on the same topic.
Third, I find it imperative to explain though that everything I did was with the best of intentions and if I wronged anyone it was done inadvertently.

For instance, In my Last message I named all or at least most of the members that took the time to answer me. It was done with out-most respect for their time and effort - I believe I even specifically expressed such appreciation by referring to my list of conclusions as "A TRIBUTE TO THEIR EFFORT AND TIME".

The list of conclusions was indeed a summary of what I learned from them and was intended to express how much I appreciate their input.

The reason I started a new thread was a very simple, practical and indeed innocent one. THE SUBJECTS WERE DIFFERENT!!

It is my belief that the amount of people that are been exposed to European Boats is larger then the number of esteemed senior members who took the time to answer me.
The subjects of the first thread ware in my mind:
(1) How should I go about evaluating the value of a yacht?
and (2) Trying to select one.
I received highly educational answers and I was treated with out-most respect. I even stated MY APPRECIATION by specifying that "FROM ALL MY TEACHERS I HAVE LEARNED!"

The subject of the second thread answered an entirely different question - at least as I see it.
The SECOND question was: HOW to find the equivalent - of what I was recommended by my mentors in the first thread - to a European product.
The reason was by no means that I disrespected their opinion.
How could that be? After all I adopted their opinion. All I did was trying to implement it by looking for its equivalent.
The reason I was looking for their answer but in Europe is a logistical/economical one.

It seems impossible to obtain the recommended named boats in Europe.
I was even in touch directly with 'Hatteras' asking them to tell me about a specific boat and the extent of my being able to sail it across the Atlantic to Europe and they - to the time of this writing - responded in the negative.

QUOTE: "We are unable to research the history of this 1977 Hatteras 58FBMY as the Hatteras factory do not keep records beyond that of the first ownership, and as the boat has never been in European waters, to the best of our knowledge, we do not have any information that may be of any help."

Upon verifying the cost of shipping a Matthews 53' from the US to Europe I was quoted a price exceeding $ 45,000. I found it prohibitively expensive especially in light of the fact that I would still have to bring it all the way to the east Mediterranean which would have added to the mere transportaton costs another 15000 - to 18000 and given that a similar boat that I found interesting was being offered at the time at a price of $ 129,000.

My assumption was that by bringing the NEW QUESTION to the subject line the possibility that someone might be able to recommend an equivalent quality European boat may be increased. Notably, none of the highly informed people that I corresponded with and knew that I am contemplating bringing a boat to Israel recommended an equivalent boat available closer to my destination.
So, in the end, I can't really see why and how I wronged someone with my my approach but, I'll take your word for it.
If however you can see the logic of what I've explained to you thus far you can see why I am flabbergasted by your remarks. I feel I don't deserve such remarks from you.
It may also be, I suppose, that while my command of the English language is reasonable there may be some nuances that I am not aware of.

As to the classified section that you referred to: Again please accept my appology...In this case I must have misunderstood something about the rules or the way to implement my adherence to them and I'll definitely try to understand again where I did something wrong.

En fin (in the end), I would be honored if the people who found it interesting to converse with me via your forum would continue to do so. I find the information they have and the their pleasant style indispensable.
Oh by the way, I even took down it my list of worthwhile quoted ideas something I believe you posted, QUOTE:
"I’ve said this before and it bears repeating… boats are made from the same materials, but the people who build them are very different."

I hope the above answers your concerns,
Alfred