Where to buy fuel and get a deal?

50+ years as a boater; 23 as a very busy Master; 27 runs up and down the coast. Never done it. However, I do make a point of using only the well traveled fuel docks, but that's because I don't want stale fuel or water in it. Never considered flash point or anything else other than that (and maybe whether they had a high speed pump). Still some of what has been posted was educational and interesting (although irrelevant to the boats I run). Hopefully those who put on 15 or 20 thousand gals on a shot already knew this info, but if not it was good to have some of the relevant info discussed. I think this thread has run its course.

Hi,

Bamboo - It seems that you think there is something superfluous in the info posted. I agree that it has gone away from the original question a bit but the question I asked about the Flash Point is Fuel related whether you believe it or not.

The variance of it in general affects the yachting world a lot more than you realise, until it became obvious that a lot of low flash point "Marine Diesel" was getting pushed to the yachts no one would give it a second thought if something didn't start growing in the sample or the F.O. Pury needed cleaning every watch after a bunkering.

Just because you operate a smaller boat and are operating within the contiguous 48 you are not immune to being delivered an off spec product.

If you say it doesn't affect you because you have never asked or checked you might have trouble using the ignorance is bliss defence should you have the misfortune to have a Fuel related incident when loading or loaded with off Spec Marine Diesel.

KIWI- you often talk down to folks and post answers that discuss apples when the subject is oranges. In my bypass blowers thread you posted :

as if I (or others) did not know a turbo uses exhaust gas and a blower is mechanically driven.
It seems (maybe I'm mistaken and it's just the way you communicate) as if you and Marmot seem to want to show the world that big boat folks know more and little boat folks need to pay homage- as if you two were teachers and the rest of us are students. If I, Seafarer, Capt J, NYCap and nearly all the rest of the captains and crew that actually have experience related to the question at hand, and our advice is nearly uniform and identical, perhaps you and Marmot- with little to no recent experience in the subject field of fueling small boats up and down the east coast USA, ought to listen instead of handing out advice that it not asked for on a subject that is not part of the discussion.

Hi,

While selective quoting can be used to highlight a few words and be useful, in this case you are using it to try and make out I am somehow picking on or belittling you.

Here is the full post that was extracted from: http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/111799-post13.html

I have re read the whole thread and do not see where you as a self assessed DD Guru posted anything that showed you knew exactly how the engine and it's attachments worked.

Many of your brotherhood of Captains are not mechanics nor engineers, some who are not conducting an inspection of the lower end of their own intestines will actually admit this, many people do not understand how a Turbo Charger actually works.

I posted some facts that I thought might be helpful, I was not condescending nor belittling you by intention. If that's how you read it then I apologise it was not my intention.

So some guys purchase more diesel at a time than some other guys have purchased in their entire career. That's great but can we back off the pissing contest and stick with information and facts. Asserting the flashpoint affects me more than I realize doesn't really TELL me anything. After reading this entire thread the only information supplied is that it is A-Bad and B-my insurance might not like it. No remedy or course of action is given. Is it going to damage my engines, blow up the boat, eat my fuel lines, or what? Even in the case of the larger vessels, where this has supposedly happened, there is no description of what had to be done. So how about it?

Hi,

Having a lower FP Fuel on-board increases your Fire Risk. Plain and simple.

All that can be done if you are offered low FP Fuel is refuse the delivery if you do a dockside FP test. As we always state that we want F.O. with a minimum FP of 60 Deg C on our bunker requests if what we measure is less than that then we can say that the FO is off spec.

If you don't or can't and load it then find FOBAS or whoever does your Lab Testwork comes back with a low number and you have sailed you can blend it with higher FP Fuel you were carrying on-board already and get a homogeneous mix with hopefully a FP somewhere near 60 C. The amount you can jack it up depends upon how much you loaded versus how much higher FP Fuel you were carrying already.

Once it has been loaded it is very difficult to get a supplier to take it away again , they will always complain that it has become like this whilst on-board and is not their problem.

Diesel

would someone please explain the difference between #'1-2 &3 diesel fuel.

Does low FP fuel have more btu's/gallon?

Thanks KIWI. Around here none of the marinas would even know what you are talking about. However the comptrollers' office of Maryland has a pretty aggressive fuel testing program for on-road fuel. I don't know how well they apply that to marinas. I'm sending them an inquiry about that now.

Last year I had an issue with some gasoline for my truck purchased at a local station. I e-mailed them on Monday just to see if anybody else had any complaints. They went to the station and tested the fuel and had the results back to me by Wednesday! Other than tax collection it was the most efficient example of State government I had ever seen.

I'm more worried about total water content than flash points..

biminijimini

You'll find some good info here: http://www.tpub.com/content/construction/14264/css/14264_159.htm
and a google search will pull up more.

Like most of us.
The best protection (besides Racors) is to use only the fuel docks that do a lot of pumping. An added bonus is that they usually will have the lowest prices as well.

"Marine Diesel" is a different fuel from the lighter #2 diesel(on-road or off-road, low sulfur or even #1 ULSD) small boats take on. This is confusing the issue and totally irrelevant to the original small boat discussion.

The flash point of fuel is a discussion with merit, but MDO having a flash point of 140 or MGO/#2 diesel having a minimum of 125 - that 15 degrees is unlikely to make much difference in the climate of the continental US.

What should be of a concern to boaters is if they're pumping #1 ULSD road fuel which may drop as low as 100 degrees according to US EPA spec. 100 can be reached in pump transfer through small hoses, or easily can be found in a closed boat on a hot day. But it's disingenuous to suggest that #1 and a ditsillate or distillate/residual blend are at the same likelihood of turning up at ABC recreational boatyard or going to go into Joe Boater's 45' Sea Ray.

It may be fun for the ship guys to pick on the poor dumb small boat slobs, but it serves neither the good of the board nor the furtherance of the industry to shovel derision and condescension in lieu of legitimate discussion.

No, low FP fuel does not necessarily have less BTUs per gallon.

#1, 2, and 4 are the most likely to be seen in or around a boatyard, and #4 is probably only going to be used to heat the shed in the colder months. #2 may be on-road diesel, off-road diesel, marine gas oil, or home heating oil.

#1 is lightweight road diesel, less sulfur, less paraffin, etc. and may be less than half the viscosity of #2 at a set temperature (just above freezing). #4 as designated may be twice as viscous as #2 or may be 10 times as viscous as #1. The fuel viscosity rises as you go up the scale, and as the fuel is less refined or distilled. #4 may be distillate and residual fuel in a blend.

#1 and #2 (and Marine Diesel) each have a minimum cetane rating of 40 per the EPA.

Yet again, you can't resist the opportunity to belittle.

Your spec sheet is a close approximation of what is going into the boat- as i said. Rest your head at night thinking you've got safe or exact numbers, but you're not taking into account additives, remainder or tank bottoms at the marina, or remainder or tank bottoms in the boat. Your wizardry in paper pushing may give you much assurance but that paper may be off as much as ten degrees either way.

False security? I say yes.

Every marine fuel retailer has access to these documents, but typically what you will get - in the northeast at least - is a piece of paper you could wipe yourself with that lists the brand spec minimums.

I don't care how demeaning you want to be, I'm the one sitting here looking at pictures of our fleet draped in Mobil banners oiling WWII carriers, Vietnam war and troop ships, and fueling Air Force C-130 Hercules and C-5 Galaxies... I'm proud to have taken part in 3 generations of a business that supplied products that everyone - including you - uses, from oil to soaps to dynamite. We made the nation a better, safer place.

Meanwhile, you're busying yourself trying to put down anyone who isn't you. I'm glad to not have such a sad life of pedantry.

Gas prices hit 26 month high

With all that's been going on with the "recovery" and the holidays on everyone's mind I wonder if anybody happed to notice that gas prices have quietly and steadily been climbing to where they are now at a 26 month high.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40537204/ns/business-oil_and_energy/

the way its going... no where!