Water delivery - non payment

Capt. J, I'm sure we all realize that how we relate to someone we've known and worked with for 10 years is entirely different than how we relate to someone we're making a delivery for. My boss on Valhalla would have to stick me real bad for me not to come out ahead overall. He treats me well and is the most honest person I know.

Beau, You're up in my territory. Winters are long. That's when I take care of medical and legal issues. It doesn't take months either. It takes about a half hour (including commute) to file and a few hours for court. Everything else is phone calls. Or about half an hour of hanging someone by their heels above freezing water. I'd spend that time going to a movie and get a lot less satisfaction, entertainment and enjoyment.

That's another reason I don't take expenses out of my own pocket. We're in a heavily cash business, and that's a big red flag for the IRS. That's one of a very select group that scare the hell out of me. I record every dime that comes in or goes out. I don't need them seeing 5 or 10 grand going into my bank account when I get reimbursed, and then I have to prove that it really wasn't income with receipts that I may or may not have 6 years later. As for it getting "crazy" for 2015, I'm a boat captain. I run boats. I leave my taxes to H&R. I just bring them my bundle, give them their fee, and they tell me what to pay or to go have a party. Doing your own taxes is one more red flag that I don't want. The few times I use crew, I pay them cash and just take the hit of it being considered my income or when possible have the boat's owner pay them directly. Easier than trying to be a bookkeeper. Thank you Ronald Ragen for the "Paperwork Reduction Act". We've never had so much paperwork to deal with as since that.

Interesting thread. Perhaps a suggestion would help in all this.
It sounds like a lot of uncrewed boats are owner out of pocket run, and that should be expected I suppose... With he dangers.

How best to handle so everyone ends up happy. Well we often invite guests who do not have the means to afford a very rare lifestyle so the solution has been to issue a card for personal expensed that is tied to the boat. Cash would work but that has problems. So when they come aboard the guest gets an envelope and an brief explanation. This started as a gift card but we found many places do not take 'gift cards' and if a guest looses the card then they have lost out. Debt cards are limited too and that has problems as the a bank account must be tied to the card and the card holder has rights to that... so there are signatures and the like and bother with the bank to deal with in that. Also, often debt cards do not work well in international use. So we have a special "company" credit card account set up for this purpose, and a real credit card with a fixed limit is issued... once that limit is reached the bank makes contact to let us know, accounting, and the card is either ordered to be terminated by the bank or a decision is made. The advantage is the protections we all know as to credit cards... fraud, lost, theft etc. The disadvantage it means the bank has to issue the card with that persons name imprinted but it is the boats account (no not general account but a separate account). So there are fees and it takes a minimum of 24hrs notice with a company card it works like getting a replacement lost card... overnight but we bear fees with the bank.

The only issue is retention. As really the funds are a effectively a gift sometimes people do not spend it all and save it for later. . We explain up front that upon three days after the visit end the card is terminated... so spend it or lose it! Well this system would be nice if owners did the same setup for unscrewed boats for expenses.... hint.

I doubt many would be willing to do this as it requires professional management or too much owner time to deal with but it is a suggestion. And, I am not going to get into the issue of taxes and other legal aspects as that is beyond the present conversation. But owners should set up with there banks such as system to deal with these kind of situations. Card runs out the bank notifies the owner and he makes decisions. Also, there are some liabilities that the bank does place on the owner. Usually every crew member will be issued such as card with limit depending on responsibility to deal with expenses of operation... very seldom abused I might add.

Have the attorney file the lien and advise you, but check the limits of small claims court. You're much better off there. It's faster and won't have to give up the 30%-50% plus costs that the attorney will charge.
Your work is not finished when you turn it over to the lawyer. You need to locate his assets. Once judgment is rendered, talking usually stops, and lawyers aren't big asset locators unless there's a lot of money at stake.

You can't post the guy's name for fear of ending up on the wrong side of a libel suit, but please do make sure his name gets out in the area where he boats. Doubt you're the first nor will be the last he sticks.

Good luck.

For a few hundred bucks loss and the money right now, I would've taken it because in the end after the lawyer and time spent collecting it you'll be worse off trying to prove a point to someone who probably doesn't care.

Upon re-reading post 43 this registered: "It's not about the money anymore and more about principle." That's a change from the first post. Good! Deadbeats depend on collection being 'more trouble than it's worth'. A principled person scares hell out of deadbeats. I once had a guy call me about taking an account where he rented out a house. The tenant gave him the first month's rent and talked him into letting him pay the security off over the first two months of the lease. He never saw another dime. The guy stayed in the house for 13 months playing the system. When he left he took the plumbing, doing $30,000 damage. My advice was to put a 9mm into the guy's ear, because that's the only way he'd get any satisfaction. The one time I was a landlord I pulled the husband aside before they moved in and explained that my method of eviction would be to put my shotgun under his nose and walk him out the door. Sue me; arrest me. I don't care. He'd be out. His rent was never late. Old school is all that works against people who have learned to play the system.

He won't squirm nor act like a child. He does it for a living and will see it equally as fun as you and probably even joke about it with his friends......here's this idiot Captain that could've taken all but a few hundred dollars of his entire bill and now he's going to waste his time fighting me for a year.......Get your money and move on.....games don't pay your bills and time is money.

That's why I recommend handling things yourself. The right person with the right motivation can make anybody's life miserable. (just ask most divorced guys.) As for that "few hundred dollars, I noticed that although the first post sounded like he offered a lesser amount, the later post referred to negotiations. If there wasn't a firm, cash in hand offer, the guy was just feeling him out to see how low he'd go and if he could be strung along forever. Yachtguymke is making the right move. Not NY style, lol, but the right move. Forget the money. Go for satisfaction. Do that and there's a good chance the money will come. Even if it doesn't, you get your pound of flesh. When I was in the collection business I found that 99% of the people I went after were honest. They just owed $100 and only had $90. I had a 4" thick filed filled with thank you notes from those people for how I treated and took care of them. But then there were the deadbeats who do it as a matter of course. That's when the fun came. It's not hard, and it's very satisfying, to absolutely ruin a person life permanently. Winning doesn't matter in a fight. Only causing damage does.

Just a moment to barge in!

Capt J, with all due respect, why so shortsighted? Of course getting your own from a swindler takes time and effort, as NYCAP already pointed out, that is exactly what their lot counts on.
However, ask yourself that: would you rather meet more or less of these?
Would you prefer them getting away with it with others and then trying on you, or learning that it does not work (and, thankfully, causes fees and headaches in the end, not to mention possible criminal charges)?

My point here is that much like a concept of people's militia, in such a situation standing firm is actually not isolated, personal decision, but one's responsibility to society. A society where everyone is ready to pounce on a sham and teach him a lesson.
And on the contrary, society where everyone just "makes his own optimal business decision" quickly degrades to one where everyone underpays everyone he could at least a minimal attorney fee. Simply because that, too, becomes perfectly rational business behavior, just as long as people on the other side are ready to walk off because "it's not much money, my time costs more" or "it's too hard and expensive to act".

(Sorry if that was bit too long or holier-then-thou. I hail from a certain country where the whole society got eaten by pretty much this kind of cancer, "moya hata s krayu" we used to call it, not my business, i just make "rational business decisions". Somehow it closely correlates with the fact it's pretty much impossible to do business in said country these days, ironically even for Putain's own friends.)

Best of luck with that case, Yachtguymke!

Quite simple. My time is valuable and I'm not going to waste anymore of it than I have to on a deadbeat. If he doesn't respond in a reasonable amount of time and financially it's worth it, I'll hand it to my attorney. I've only been stiffed 2 times and for nominal amounts $500 or less. The other one my attorney collected. I'm too busy running my business that is very busy and in the time it takes for me to chase someone down, it's not worth it to me financially. My business is a passion, however I still look at it as a business and time vs. money. In the amount of time it takes to chase someone down, attempt to collect via the court system and everything else, I can make more just working. Also, quite frankly in my time off I'd like to enjoy myself. Ohhh, word travels fast here, you let a few colleagues know the person is a deadbeat and it travels fast. Generally I don't encounter them because most all of my business is strictly through referals.

As I just wrote, you are supposed to collect not for your own cash, but as a form of pro bono responsibility to your industry and community. Specifically, weeding out crap people from it.
You would want others to do the same. End result, everyone just and fair wins on the long run, by not having to deal with those who are not. And that win includes yourself.

Word travels VERY fast in this industry and deadbeats are known pretty quick. Most people aren't going to google someone before they work on their boat.

Unfortunately you could find yourself defending against a charge of defamation. Best to keep names to word of mouth. Not to say they'd win, but why open yourself up.

Maybe it's because I don't like bullies and people who take advantage of others; or maybe it's a matter of self-respect. I cannot and wouldn't LET anyone take advantage of me. To me money is meaningless by comparison. I can always get more money. Some things you can't get back once you give them up.