Volvo IPS - CMD Zeus

Supply and demand. We may see people wanting to slow down to 7 or 8 knots, but I have not heard much about this. I read about a new hybrid to be launched in Ft Lauderdale at the show.
I really do feel we will see a growth in sailboats however. It just makes sense, but that is for another forum.

Skiffy,
Your wish seems to be coming true. Now it seems ZF will offer its own version of ZEUS (they did build the gear after all) to any engine builder. It was on display by Gregory Poole at the Pirate's Cove Tournament in NC, with a phony jackshaft to a Cat engine.

Now for the tricky part. Steering, my friend was told ZF's version would be all electric. CMD is electric to hydraulic with a secondary hydraulic backup of some kind.
The trim tab will be in a "fixed" position. This certainly simplifies things for the wizard that will build the electronic interface between the systems. The trim tabs are more effective farther out on the hull anyway.

So what technician can work on this?

One supplier is a good idea.

I believe Volvo locked up the I/O and the duo-prop with patents for a long time. This time I see a race shaping up and the consumer will certainly benefit from the competition. We're living in an exciting time for marine technology.

I would never argue that NYCAP123!

Quad IPS

I have couple of questions:

- Does anybody knows why, besides Lazzara, nobody attempts to install quad IPS configuration? It has been like 2 years since the 75 Quad with 600s and now 92 quad with VP IPS 850s. Does Lazzara have exclusive rights for quad IPS configurations? If not, why not anybody else?

- Any intel about hybrid (diesel/electric) IPS possibility? When I say electric, I mean serious, like 200 hp electric motor coupled with IPS 600s... not 7 hp for 5 knots in the marina (it sounds like a joke, but hopefully a good start).

Thanks..

More quads?

Lazzara does not have exclusive rights to the quad version of IPS from what I hear. It takes a larger, wide beam boat than most production boat companies (the Tiara 58' triple as an example) here typically offer. Certainly there are boats built in Europe that would support it however.
As we have seen in this thread, the US branch of Volvo Penta seems perhaps more aggressive in this area, with engineering resources like the integration center and the relationship with Donald Blount (well known Naval Architect firm). But the bigger the boats get, the fewer there are being built.
What about those sport fishing boats however? Seems like it could produce a good demand and decent volumes.

No idea of any hybrid efforts at all. IPS saves a bunch of fuel as it is over conventional shafts. The Dick Lazzara piece on the DVD claims up to 50%. Take away some possible exaggeration and it is still substantial.

Hi,

You are going to need some substantial power and mass to produce the electricity for your 200 hp motor- more weight than an engine on it's own so there would not be any real advantage there

Electric motor

I found one:
G151523 200hp 1785RPM 445T Frame
460volts 229.0 1875 lb. $5109.63

More than twice the weight of the D6 itself. Not sure what you would do with this?

Electric Rim Drives for big Panamax Super-Ketch

You might have a look at this posting I made under Electric Rim Drives:

To be installed on the new Panamax 'super-ketch'

"It’s not the only movable appendage below the waterline. Like an increasing number of new yachts, the Panamax ketch will take advantage of the advances in diesel electric power generation , in this case designed by MR Fertigung-Technologie GmbH, a German company based in Rostock. This allows the use of two retractable, electrically driven propellers developed by the award-winning Dutch company Van der Velden. By swinging or retracting the props into the hull the yacht's underbody will become perfectly flush when sailing, further enhancing -performance

Instead of using a conventional engine for propulsion, the Panamax will befitted with a number of generating sets (the likelihood is four) which, as Erik Wassen put it: “Will provide a power sharing opportunity with a priority system.”

In other words the generating sets will automatically deliver power to the numerous systems precisely when they want it and at sufficient levels, whether it be the hydraulic pumps for the big winch packages, domestic power to run the hotel systems or power for propulsion. Heavy battery banks are limited to emergency sets.

The generating system can devote all its energy to the retractable hubless props—the blades of the propellers are set on the inner surface of the circular units, which house the electric motors themselves instead of on a central hub."

http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/57800-post38.html

Hi,

A quick calculation of what you need to drive a 200hp electric motor.

200 Hp = approx 149 kW, The motor will no doubt have a Power Factor somewhere in the .8x% so I have used .85 as a median value.

This means you will need some 175 ekW to drive your motor at full power, your alternator ( the source of the AC Power) also has a limiting PF Value around the same as the motor so you are now looking at around 200kW Engine Power to get your 200 Hp motor power.

There are of course ways of improving the PF by using drive units etc but these all add weight and take up space plus of course there is that old nugget of........ the costs. And it is this last one that normally causes the greatest ructions.

I just don't se any of the above mentioned happen...

I see that Salthouse Marine in Auckland, New Zealand are completing a quad IPS powered 65' sportsfisher.

why not quads?

Complexity and cost, two engines are needed for manouvering but you don't need four so the only reason to have four is bacause IPS don't have big enough units (at the moment)

As an owner I would be hesitant of the extra complexity, and what may become quite a cramped engine room, but I suppose it has the benefit that if one engine goes down you have 75% of power left and not 50% so you can get to the dock quicker?

It's going to take a few years to settle out where and how these systems fit into builders ranges, builders are a cautious lot and they are gathering feedback and results from the units they have fitted.

Hi,

Don't bank on being able to plane with just 3 of engines/drives working.

I spent a bit of time running a 3 engine Sunseeker Superhawk 52, twice we were down to two engines (66% power remaining ) and both times we were unable to get her on the plane and had to limp along at about 10 kts.

With multi engine apps however you get a wide range of suitable speeds and loading condition for the engines running.

Maybe the 4 engine boat wants to speed to the fishing grounds and then take it easy on two while they drag the gear?

Salthouse have a very good reputation and I have done a few miles on a Ketch they built in the 80's, I for one am looking forward to their 4 drive motorboat project.

It's called redundancy.

Triple performance

I have had the privilege of covering nearly 5,000 miles on Tiara's 5800, with triple IPS 600's. The experience has shown the following:

1.) The fuel economy gain is very real. Cruising at 28 knots fully loaded to over 50,000 lbs. displacement she burns 50 gph.

2.) The best fuel economy is spread over a wide rpm range, 2,600 to 3,200.

3.) With any engine shut down, she will get on plane and run 22 knots at WOT or 18 knot cruise, however, the 2 engines are running extremely overloaded and consume 6 gph more than if running all 3 engines at the same speed.

4.) The boat stays on plane down to 14 knots, but that speed is not very efficient.

5.) I am now beyond calling the use of a joystick cheating, as docking in a stiff breeze can make you a hero. The joystick maneuvering is an easily learned skill, easier if you never used bow or stern thrusters and tend to ask for all or nothing. The longer the vessel in a beam breeze, the more you need to keep your bow with you with a twist of the stick.

6.) The steering response is extreme, like running a 60' ski boat. In evidence, try to track a waypoint you've already passed.

7.) A failed steering unit can be manually set straight to get home.

8.) Holeshots to plane are impressive due to superchargers carrying you to the turbos.

And thankfully I cannot report what happens when the drives are slammed into concrete,

Evan

Thanks guys, especially CaptEvan, for sharing your IPS experiences. So far, it's clear to me that IPS pod drives are superior to the conventional shaft drives. There are more boats are buing build with this new system. Also, whenever you have a chance, please check Sept 08 PMY magazine pages 81-86. There is an excellent article on IPS triple config. You will realize that the necessary space required is so little. Based on the pictures I have seen and other specs I have gathered, a very wide beam is not necessary to be able to have quad engines; a 171 inch beam can do it (this info was not in the article, it came directly from Volvo Penta engineers) There are already plenty of boats out there which can accomodate quads in terms of necessary beam width... I guess it's matter of time to see these boats with quad IPSs on the market...

Regarding electric or hybrid engines, there are two car companies made some interesting advances which I believe boat manufacturers should keep close eye on:
- A California firm called Tesla Motors came up with pure electric vehicle with 185 kW engine (I believe it translates to over 200 hp). And the rotor (electric motor) weighs only 115 lbs and a size of an watermelon. Of course this excludes the battery and the transmission..

- Lexus has come up with a hybrid engine 200+ hp gas and 200+ hp electric. They are experimenting it with their race cars and results are positive.

All these developments are prompting me to see this kind of products with marine vessels. I am simply dreaming about very efficient and yet powerful hybrid engine coupled with IPS drives. So I can cover many thousand nms without refueling on a low speed or drive over 40+ knots if and when I want to...

what I see from builders

I get the strong impression that some are backing away from IPS slightly and at least two major builders are not considering them for the next two or three years production at all.
In my work I talk to builders specifically about drive options.

Hi Skiffy, when you say backing away, it means that they have used them and didn´t like them? After spending yesterday at the IPS test center, driving both existing and coming versions, I found that docking was almost too easy. They told us that customers usually found that the whole family now could drive and dock their boat, sometimes the wife and kids better than the husband...

Compared to shafts and rudders it improves on speed and range, liberates living space inside and the joystick makes the handling safe and easy.

They said that even conservative sport-fishers are now starting to use them since they are so easy to handle when fishing.

I have not yet seen a Zeus drive in real life, but since you have to make a special hull for them, they are probably facing more problems with boat builders than IPS and the only other drive system that comes near in handling, is waterjets which have other limitations.

I am pretty sure that pod drives with joystick steering is what the clients will ask for in boats from about 40 feet and up. Below this the stern drives are still better for most inboard engine boats.

Exactly

That's what I'm seeing from builders.

I agree they are fantastic systems and the manouvreability is a great incentive to new owners, really easy to park. The joystick is a great development as close quarters control has always been very stressful for owners and the family and friends aboard, it's the bit most people hate. It will be what lots of people want and they will be pushing builders to offer the system on a bigger range of boats. But there is a bigger group of builders and users that see this as complex and high risk in terms of maintenance and reliability.

They will grow in popularity but I'm getting the impression many builders will now go in a different direction.

It has made builders sit up and think with regards to propulsion systems and efficiency though, which is great for hull designers and end users.