VIDEO - Sunk Bertram Discussion

I wondered about that as well, but wasn't sure if that was the tower or my imagination. If it is indeed the tower, that would rule out a lot of the "the boat tumbled around on the bottom" theory. I'm also wondering if the boat actually was tumbling end-over-end, then how come the instrument console is still attached by its wires (though laying against the helm seating).

The more I look at the footage and consider the above statement, the more it unnerves me. With following seas, the boat is coming down upon the waves rather than stuffing, which explains why it's not a hull/deck separation but instead so much further down the hull sides... yet at the stated speed and stated seas, this utter devastation is a "never should have happened" incident. I would love to believe that this is a specific incident with specific causes such as a bad batch of resin, or air pockets/voids in the laminate that happened to be in the precise spot where they were compromised in a situation that went against all odds. The only thing keeping me from believing that, however, is the fact that the video shows a number of things that I as an owner would severely question. Issues that I would consider a compromise of the integrity of the laminate, before the boat left the building shed.

These are only my impressions, not statements of fact or finding. Not speculation but conclusions that I have drawn. This is not intended as a slam against the manufacturer, but a simple statement of observations I have made.

This should be an interesting court case. I can't believe that this kind of damage could occur in a 3 to 4 foot following sea without an intervening act even if the boat were held together with scotch tape. That portion of the bow would have never contacted the water much less stuffed in those conditions. I'm also surprised that the boat was not on autopilot given conditions and where they were running. Something is definitely missing here. You are absolutely right to say this is a "never should have happened" incident. I'm inclined to think the bow was pierced, then dragged down where poor construction and an onrush of water took over. But we may never know. We've heard from the owner who was an idiot for not having it insured for the trip and Bertram who is definitely in CYA mode. Hopefully the captain's and 1st responders statements will become public soon as well as a statement from MM, but I suspect even those will not put this one to rest.

That boat should cut thru 3-4 footers like a knife, I agree, there is more to the story and I bet you it will unfold soon? This bow stuffing theory is nuts, it had to have hit something, that started the chain reaction.

Could have been the chain?

Seafarer
Take it from me as I have first hand knowledge. The 5 times I have had a MAJOR "stuff" situation, it has been in following seas. I have never done it in a head sea.
1 time in my 50 Bertram & the other four were all during offshore powerboat races.
I'm sure it can happen when running head on but my own experience and the many who I have raced against shows following seas are the worst.

An example of what Lars is referring to...

Watch from 1:04 and freeze at around 1:16.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oBr8bHuZ1k&feature=browch

is the video ever going to be publicly posted?

Now ... what would it take to really stuff the bow of this boat in 3-4 foot seas? How about wide open ... pinned ... would that do it? Then combine that with a weak layup and poor QC ... explosion.

Remember, sailors, that 3 - 4 footers can double onto each other and vary in period. A couple of steep ones with a unfavorable frequency can find you diving into an 8 foot wall of water. Coastal wave reflections and shoals also can impact wave form and size significantly and rapidly.

My racing has been limited to outboard tunnels and Mod-VP, both of which hate a following sea. I've learned not to run them hard in that situation, so have never really had a major stuff except head on with the Allison, which nearly snapped my neck when my helmet flooded and went backwards. With the Sutphen we had, no matter what we ran it in, it never really stuffed. Then again, by that point, I had learned to read the seas and wasn't competing with that boat. The Huckins wouldn't stuff the bow (except when a nuke sub broached ahead of us) but would come to nearly a dead stop at a 15 knot run pushing into a large wave. Not being a professional captain, my experience is limited w/r/t variety of yachts.

Is it possible that this boat had to cross over another large boats wake?

Oh man, I bet you were sore for a month! My neck hurts just thinking about it.
In the four high speed stuffs I've been through, I was fortunate enough that both boats had very high cowlings & I didn't take a direct hit of a 90-100 mph rush of water. You are extremely lucky. Your situation is exactly what has caused multiple fatalities. Carl had a high speed stuff with very lucky results as well. There have been several instances where it hasn't been too rough to slow people down and the boats "trip" off the top of a small wave & then stuff. The offshore boats of the last 10 years are running 120-140 mph during any given race with a 2' chop. Toss in a doubled up pair of 4 footers & bam! Concrete wall.

I don't think this 63 completely "stuffed". I bet the bow went in fairly deep but I'd bet the damage had been getting worse and worse over a short period of time (just like the other Bertram we have all seen with the delamination). It was just a matter of time for it to take another wave & fail.

I don't see it as being possible to stuff a 63' in a 3-4 foot sea. Looking at the damage, what if the anchor locker drain was not sealed at all and the core was open there, and the constant running and forcing of water in there flooded the coring material?

The 25 knots and not being on autopilot in the middle of the ocean worries me. One would think that 63' would eat up a 3-4 following sea. If the boat was heavy....... (maybe with water intrusion in the coring) the autopilot might have stopped keeping the boat on course? Something does not add up here IMO. If something did happen, the Captain would probably not admit to it.........He works for MarineMax, and is also working for the owner.......

What would happen if someone accidentally put the engines in full speed reverse while the boat was at cruise....... the deceleration could possible sever the transom, the momentum of the tower pushing foward on the front tower legs could possibly snap the front deck, or at the very least put a huge load on it.......and the console could come un-screwed and glued and work it's way foward......Couple that with lamination issues to begin with.

Without a doubt there are several lamination issues involved here.......

-WOW! just watched the video.... she looks wafer thin for that size boat (but that could be the vert distort in the camera), and the engine room, im guessing there looking for some sign of fire damage...? i think a combination of bad docking, blocking on the hard, big seas thanks to jbk4001, bad batch of core... she just gave up under the small loads.

-i can see the skipper telling some truth about the bow caving in. there has been some load transfer from the cabin/flybridge/tower wanting to move forward in a following sea (running downhill) - the hull wants to stop, but the cabin is still wanting to move forward - theres no damage on the gunwhales where the cabin ends, and back towards the stern. this is also where the centre fuel tank in approx located, so im guessing the hull would be very strong in that area. the deck i think has just ripped off after time when down in the 'ocean storms' (just speculation).

-those 'trenches', i think are just tide on the sand. there was an aerial shot of the front of the boat, and u could see a few (10+) of them running parrellel to the boat.

-Capt J, those scratches your talking about, could they have been from the transom coming off...?

-the flybridge roof is missing... correct? and inside the cabin everything is laying up against the back bulkhead, suggesting its gone down stern first...?

-teddy, i would have to say from a design point of view the Bertram has put on a 'bit of weight' up front.

far

Far, not sure what you mean when you say a "bit of weight"? A bit of weight, as a result of possible water intrusion in the core, or as a result of the Bertram's design. Even so, I still don't see that boat not being able to handle 3-4's?

Did anyone ever check to see exactly what the marine forecast was on that day, is it possible to check the period between waves for that day? Even so, 3-4's?

I was running ~80 in the Barnegat Bay (off Bayville NJ) in 3' seas with a very short period. No good reason for even staying in the water with this boat... 1st all-Kevlar boat built by Allison, weighs just under 1k# with me and 10 gallons of fuel, with 370HP of Dick O'Dea prepped Bridgeport on the transom.

Probably should be in another thread... but, I never would really air it out with anyone else aboard. Chine walk is a bad thing when other people aren't prepared.

I know I was lucky but I still feel it nearly every day.

These may be the only concrete facts that we can derive from the evidence we have. The evidence points in certain directions for each side of the litigation as well as for each observer. Those directions are obviously not the same for all parties involved.