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Trinity "Mine Games" Playing Docking Games...

Discussion in 'Trinity Yacht' started by YachtForums, Jul 10, 2009.

  1. Capt Bill11

    Capt Bill11 Senior Member

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    "pretty common", really?

    Maybe it's a Miami day boat charter thing.

    But most of the big boat captains and crews I see on a regular basis, seem to know their stuff. And I don't think they'd have to hard a time getting the hang of Med mooring.
  2. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    it's a Miami thing i guess, pretty pathetic. 3 attempts to to get the hook to set in a spot which i know gurantees a set on the first try.

    of course, when you use about 3:1...

    another time, we saw an even larger boat, drag 1/2 a mile 3 times, they never got a set.

    and then one that dragged into us...

    and ...

    it's actaully very entertaining down here! but if those clowns had to med moor? now that would become instant YouTube classic!
  3. Kevin

    Kevin YF Moderator

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    I believe his previous yacht was Hyperion.
  4. Blair

    Blair New Member

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    Yep - I am sure you're right. It was a technological miracle vessel at the time. Was capable, in theory, of remote operation of its sailing systems etc. using a computer on the other side of the world as I recall.
  5. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    I'm sure he's an excellant captain. He wouldn't be captaining a yacht like that if he weren't. It happens. It just get's more embarrasing and expensive the bigger the boat. Sounds like for the price of those repairs though at least a couple of dolphins could be installed 50 or 100' out so he could idle in. Sure these captains are used to it and good at it, but who needs another gray hair. Med-moor is fine, but one mishap or one guy that doesn't have quite enough fenders out or in the right place and a lot of money gets spent when it's avoidable. :confused:
  6. AMG

    AMG YF Moderator

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    When it is strong crosswinds, many captains prefer to stay "around the corner" until it calms down. If they need a RIB or a harbour tug, they can ask for it and especially big yachts without bow thruster use to launch a tender or two themselves.

    I had a view over the Port of Monaco for many years and could see that all captains were diffferent, but most of the incidents was anchoring too far out (it is deep here). A little embarrasing when the chain is ended just 5 meters too early so they have to do it all over again.

    I can not remember any damage to yachts, but it happened a couple of times they got sideways and had to be assisted to get out of trouble. But normally, when you have got half the boat in between the others, the crosswind is no longer troubling you and you can slow down in time.

    Usually your crew is throwing their lines about 6-10 meters from the quay, so you are safe to winch the last few meters.
  7. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    If you have a piling 50' off the dock and have a boat that sticks out 150 or so ft then you are going to have a lot of boat still outside the pilings, if they are 100' out there is still going to be a lot of boat inside the pilings with no other support on the downwind side before you get close enough to get a line ashore.

    Oh I almost forget, depth is not normally something one has to worry about in the Med as there is a lot of it in most places so your piling would need to resemble an iceberg and also have the resistance to support hundreds of tons of vessel held against it by both wind and excessive use of the throttles to get the boat off that ))++£"! Piling.
  8. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    Once a quarter is inside a piling the boat can pivot off it. It's home. The depth issue is another story though. Can't change nature. Guess where it's 50' deep at dockside the marina would have to opt for extending fingers from that floating dock. You're still talking med-moor with pilings or fingers (unless they put in a 200' corridor of dolfins). The idea is to eliminate the need to race all the way in to the pier and have seconds to stop and get a stern line checked. Granted these large yachts have professional crew, but I have to guess they also get 80 footers with mom tossing lines. Using a RIB with a crew member (who may have no harbor tug experience) between two 150' yachts, with one in motion, to act as a fender is not preferable to a dolphin, piling or dock IMHO.
  9. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    "The idea is to eliminate the need to race all the way in to the pier and have seconds to stop and get a stern line checked."

    why would you even need to race to the pier? once the stern is in, you can take it slow since wind isnt' goign to affect your stern as it's sheltered by the other boats. and you keep it positioned with the gears, so what's the issue? same, once you're close to the dock, you "hover" with the gear.

    the only issue is the bow falling off in a Xwind but nowadays with thrusters that's not a big issue either. Even without thrusters, a little tension on the rode will keep the bow pretty much in line, it all comes down to good coordination with whoever is handling the windlass controls. that's why having a remote switch at the helm (or wherever the docking station may be) is so convenient.
  10. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    You may have missed the video that started this thread. It was about a yacht that came in fast because there was nothing on the upwind side to block the wind and carried that speed a little too far.:rolleyes:

    Remember, our job is not to show off our skills. It's to do a job safely, and anything that helps me do that is a wonderful thing. Or maybe that's just because I'm one of those American "drivers" you refer to:
  11. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    no i didn't miss it, that was 4 pages ago and since then the discussion as turned to med mooring in general, not that specific incident.

    referring specifically to that case, when you have room up wind, you can come in at an angle to stay off the downwind boat, there is still no need to "race" to the dock... Even without stern thruster, you can use keep the stern upwind with the gears and control the bow with the bow thruster and/or the anchor rode.

    my point is that not having pilings is not an excuse to "race" to the dock.
  12. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    One boat flying back at speed and smashing into the dock is not how the vast majority of the boats are handled.

    A member of the crew handling the brake on the stbd anchor ( assuming there was plenty of scope and it had taken before the maneuver was totally committed to) and prudent use of the throttles could have got that boat back into the berth with no drama and fuss as the stbd side was unrestricted he could have favoured the upwind side till he got a sternline on the windward side.
  13. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    To quote the captain "Yeah I F***ed up", and unfortunately all of us probably said that at one time or another. My point is not that we shouldn't be skilled, nor that the maneuver can't be done safely more times than not. My point is why not add a layer of protection and convenience that is provided to most 20 footers here. These yachts are not exactly second class citizens.
  14. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    that question has been answered... it's one thing to sink a couple of pilings in an 8' deep marina for a 20 footer to lean on (or even a 60 footer for that matter) but installing something strong enough in 20 or 30' deep water to bear the force or a 150' yacht is another story...

    ever seen a piling being pulled or installed? i think someone mentioned Icebergs earlier, that's correct... the length of the piling submerged in the bottom is many time the water depth plus whatever sticks out... ever seen how high the rubrail is on a 150 footer? plus the highest possible tide? you'd need to sink that piling 100' in the bottom, plus 20' depth plus 20' above... i dont' think God makes trees that big and the cross section/weight of a concrete pile would be huge...

    only alternative is waht they do here on this side of the pond... tie alongside and fit a fraction of the boats.
  15. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    Actually, pilings and dolphins are sunk in 10' to 20'. You may have even noticed them being made of concrete and steel (length unlimited). Putting these into water 30' deep with another 10' above the water is no big deal. Years ago I spent 3 weeks pressed on a wall while they were blasted into granite next to me at Military Pier in N.J. (loud). For water that's 50 or 100' deep a 20' long finger off the main dock would also do the job. Just because it's the way it's always been done is not a reason to continue doing it. 50 years ago yachts were steel or wood, painted and a whole lot cheaper to fix. Awlgrip, aluminum, fiberglass and composites are a lot less forgiving as are the toys carried on the backs of some of these boats. What it comes down to is an unwillingness to give up a few feet of income producing dock space for the convenience of the customer. Mine games (in this particular situation) will now lose a nice chunk of summer cruising and a serious bit of money, but at least it doesn't cost the marina anything.
  16. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    10 to 20' deep is fine for a small piling in a small marina. it's all about leverage... 10' above the water is not even going to reach the rubrail of a large boat! so you're going to have something like 50', from teh bottom. visualize the forces, or draw it on a piece of paper... I'm no engineer or architect, and i didn't stay at an hooliday inn express last night, but i know there is no way 10 to 20' into the bottom is going to keep that in place.

    and i dont' know what the bottom is like, but i think that there is probably a lot of rock in the med, along the shore line when you get 20 or 30' below the bottom...

    bottom line (pun intended), med mooring works even if it's a little intimidating when seen from this side of the pond. no need to reinvent the wheel.
  17. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    I agree but this doesn't seem to deter everyone, I know a guy who is looking at a revolutionary new shape for the wheel himself:D
  18. AMG

    AMG YF Moderator

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    With the shortage of dock space we have, it is not the port losing money if they take away space, it is the yacht owners who has to pay for it.

    But as I said earlier, it isn´t a problem in reality. Any captain worth the job can handle a Med mooring, or learn how to from the more experienced.
  19. Ken Bracewell

    Ken Bracewell Senior Member

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    Mods- please take note

    Exactly why I wouldn't want them in place- steel and concrete cause havoc to rub rails. Even wood can scratch "rub" rails (I put it in quotes because many are just painted aluminum these days) or rip out screw heads.

    Ed- I can see that we won't easily change your mind on this one, but take it from a guy who runs these maneuvers regularly- the med-moor works well and wouldn't be improved by adding pilings. It's much easier to hang a couple of fenders and then trust them to do their job along the fairly uniform surface of your neighbors hull than it is try to keep one fender between yourself and a single piling as you're backing down.

    Again- I suggest that this discussion be moved to http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/yacht-captains/3243-mediterranean-moor.html as we've clearly moved away from a discussion on Mine Games.

    BTW- The Captain of Mine Games is one of those Americans too ;)
  20. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    Except maybe to help avoid $XX,000 in damages and having your boat put out of commission by your neighbor who may not be as skilled as you. As for being intimidated, hell I'm intimidated every time I slide a multi-million dollar toy in between 2 other multi-million dollar toys even though I do it well because I know I'm just one gust of wind or one distracted moment or one miscalculation away from having to say "Yeah I F***ed up". I'm sure that will change though once I achieve perfection. Till then I'll take all the convenience and protection I can get.
    And I'm not suggesting that anybody slide along a concrete piling any more than they should slide along someone else's hull. The idea is that, with it there you can lay against it while you reposition instead of having to go in fast so as not to use someone else's hull for that purpose. Fender rub isn't pretty either, especially on the colored hulls that are in fashion.
    Absolutely right, and 99% of us don't need bumpers on our cars either.