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Transfer title to LLC and refinance the boat....?

Discussion in 'General Yachting Discussion' started by Norseman, Jul 20, 2016.

  1. Norseman

    Norseman Senior Member

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    Don't really have a burning desire to go into the charter business, but since I already own a boat, own an LLC and hold a USCG ticket, then was contacted by these people https://www.boatsetter.com/
    I started thinking about it...

    Boatsetters seems to be like Uber for boats, and I thought it could be fun to try, then it snowballed into this thread when I was pondering hiding the boat in my LLC. :cool:
  2. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    Problem is that most day charters will be more than 6 pax (especially boatsetter or boatbound) which means bareboat charter and the owner can't be on board ...so you ll have to rely on whatever captain they supply.

    If you want to do some limited chartering just keep the boat and financing the way it is
  3. bliss

    bliss Senior Member

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    Often free advise is worth what you paid for it. I think this time you received very good advise for a bargain price. As to operating as a charter, no matter how structured, your marine underwriter is leaving town with Slim. My guess is your current insurance does not cover commercial use of the boat. Check it out.
  4. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    Most decent insurance policies cover occasional charter as long as an approved captain in operating the boat. It s either written in the base policy or added as an endorsement On request

    Occasional chartering isn't considered commercial use
  5. Norseman

    Norseman Senior Member

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    Not too concerned about commercial insurance.
    Obviously my present policy is for strictly recreational but waiting to hear back from agent on adding a commercial endorsement for occasional chartering, or look elsewhere for a different policy.
    More concerned about the market for chartering a small boat for sightseeing trips, perhaps the demand is slim to none and I am wasting my time..
  6. Norseman

    Norseman Senior Member

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    I will only charter with this owner onboard.
    Not doing bareboat, but crewed charter, and I am the crew:cool:
    As for more than 6 pax, a similar boat in the Keys are advertising on Boatsetter they can take 10 pax.
    Don't want that on my boat, too crowded and with full fuel it would be sitting pretty low in the water. Planning on 6 or less, with perhaps an occasional 7 if skinny folkso_O
  7. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    For Uninspected boats the limit is 6 pax unless you do bareboat contract and in this case you CAN NOT be on board since you are the owner

    Do not mess with this. You get boarded with 7 pax and you will be fined. Not worth it

    The ride sharing sites like boat setters and boatbound list over 6 pax capabilities because they run under bareboat rules when over 6

    The USCG district 7 has published a very helpful flyer which clarify charter rules

    http://www.uscg.mil/d7/sectmiami/pdf/CharterBrochure.pdf
  8. Norseman

    Norseman Senior Member

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    Thanks Pascal, good point, I have no intention of violating anything: Was thinking about the limitation of a 6 pax license, not the boat.
    Will study the guide.
    Good advice, keep it coming, I am new to chartering and have not done my homework yet, learning everyday.
  9. Norseman

    Norseman Senior Member

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    Now read the above guide and are wiser but still have questions:
    If an owner is not allowed aboard during a charter, and are not allowed to act as master or part of the crew: What the hell do you call those sport fish operations taking out people for hire and the boat and company owned by the master?

    Last time I even considered setting up a charter operation was 1985 when I had a 44' sailboat in St. Thomas.
    Got my 6-pack ticket and had arranged to take crew or officers from the Norwgian cruise ships for a day-sail to some small island with a beach, unlimited food and drinks inlcuded. All for $50 per head and with a commercial insurance of about 2%.
    Back then there was no restriction on the owner not allowed onboard:rolleyes:

    Looks like the guide is talking about bare boating, but calling it a charter.
    If a crewed charter is also a charter, uh, why are they both called the same?

    At any rate, one of my buddies is a licensed captain and I thrust him to take my boat out, I guess that would make it legal if the Charterer selects my buddy as a master...?
  10. ranger58sb

    ranger58sb Senior member

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    Owner ( perhaps with tickets) CAN be on board an uninspected vessel with 6 passengers or less.

    It's the bareboat part where owners can't be oboard as master or crew.

    Your sportfish example depends on the circumstances. Could be master (potentially owner) operating an uninspected vessel with a 6-pack license. Could be an inspected vessel, maybe more than 6 passengers, master (potentially owner) operating with tonnage ticket. Could be master with tonnage tickets on an uninspected vessel with 6 passengers or less. Depends.

    -Chris
  11. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    With 6 passengers or less then the owner can be the captain, it s a regular crewed charter with a single contract. This is how most smalle fishing charter operate.

    It gets confusing when operating as a bareboat charter which is what this flyer mostly covers as there have been some abuse. This allows boats to carry up to 12 passengers plus the charterer. Bareboat charter means the charterer charters the vessel from the owner without crew and provides the crew. In theory the owner is not supposed to impose a specific crew although he has the right to approve or reject the crew selected by the charterer. It's a little silly as insurance policies on bigger boats specifically restrict operations to an approved captain
  12. Mark Woglom

    Mark Woglom Senior Member

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    I don't think this needs to be as complex as some would suggest. Here are some ideas:

    1. Create a small daily charter rate for the boat itself. It should be small, so you are not paying taxes on that income. That said, the rental income at the end of the year could/should offset any ancillary costs of renting the boat, such as increased insurance premiums, additional fuel, or charter provisions. The boat rental becomes a sort of "break even".
    2. Personally rent the boat to an LLC that you own, on a daily basis, while the boat is under charter. Claim that income, and offset that income with any ancillary costs that are purely associated with the charter business rental (fuel, added insurance premium, provisions). Do not try to write off annual costs that would still be there if you had solely used the boat for personal purposes (loan payments, standard insurance, typical maintenance, dockage, etc.)
    3. Add your own personal captain rate to the cost of the charter. Pay income taxes on whatever income you earn from this rate.
    4. Confirm that your boat insurance would cover rental to a 3rd party. If not, get alternate insurance. Have the LLC get general liability insurance, and be sure to get personally named as an additional insured on the LLC policy.
    5. Charter the boat, have some fun, meet some people, make a little money, and pay a little bit more in taxes. While doing all of this, try not to hit anything.

    You won't get in trouble with the IRS, because you'll be paying some taxes, and it will be clear that you are not trying to turn personal expenses into business expenses. If something bad happens, you will be insured. You won't need a new loan, and you won't need to worry about your bank, as long as you keep paying 'em.

    If you're really just trying to gain some excess income through a hobby charter business, this will work. If your real goal is to offset your typical ownership costs, you'll need more detailed legal/professional advice, akin to what others are suggesting.

    Good luck.
  13. Norseman

    Norseman Senior Member

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    Thx guys.
    Now I am really confused. :confused:

    I should call these boatsetter people, they should know it all: No need for me to reinvent no wheel.
  14. Norseman

    Norseman Senior Member

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    Ok Mark, makes sense now.
    Yes, trying to make hobby money, No not trying to screw the IRS or anybody else.
    Will look further into it.
  15. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    You may call but you should decidedly not accept their answers as fact as their answers are likely not coming from lawyers and/or accountants, but sales people working for them.
  16. Norseman

    Norseman Senior Member

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    Aye, of course.
    I may be good looking, but not stupid. :D
  17. Norseman

    Norseman Senior Member

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    I called boat setters:
    They could only confirm that the owner can not captain his own boat while chartering, but it would change in a month or so: Not sure if they expect a rule change from the USCG or if they are working on some excemption.
    They have 400 Captains listed in South Florida who could drive my boat while I sit at home in the shade and drink cold beer.
    I only thrust a few Captains that I personally know, Capt. J would be one of them.
  18. Norseman

    Norseman Senior Member

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    Next question for the wise men on this forum:
    To transfer the title and ownership to my LLC, I need to pay off the loan, no big deal, got cash and with the loan @4,11% it is probably a wash the way the market is going.

    Question:

    The boat is Documented, do I have to re-do the whole darn Documentation Process, or is there a quick way, like with real estate: Quick Claim Deed?
  19. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    Yep, a mod to the document stating new owning identity and $65 dollars.
  20. Norseman

    Norseman Senior Member

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    Finally you have some good news Mr. rcrapps, if not so ugly, I would give you a hug:)