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Sea Ray 580 Sedan Bridge?

Discussion in 'Sea Ray Yacht' started by ranger58sb, Dec 21, 2020.

  1. mapism

    mapism Senior Member

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    All MAN engines with 128mm bore are designated D28xy.
    The third digit (x) can be 4, 6 or 7 depending on the bore - respectively 142, 157 or 166mm.
    The fourth digit (y) can be 6, 8, 0 or 2 depending on the number of cylinders - respectively, I6, V8, V10 or V12.

    Back to your original question, the short answer is yes: the V8/900 was the electronically controlled common rail version of the V8/800.
    Pretty different animals though, even if they shared the very same block.
    The V8/800 was the last full mechanical development, and pretty solid.
    The V8/900 was the first, and also the last, CRM version of that block, with a more colourful history.
    So much so, that instead of being further developed after its introduction (in 2005, IIRC), as the V12 was, it was kept on hold waiting for the modified block which was under development.
    This new block also allowed them to go for a longer stroke (157 vs. 142mm), hence a correspondingly higher displacement.

    So, to summarize, the latest outputs of the 142mm stroke blocks were the 900, 1100 and 1360 hp, respectively for the V8/10/12.
    With the longer stroke blocks, unless I missed some "latest and greatest" announcement, they are now at 1300hp for the V8 and 2000hp for the V12.
    The V10 was phased out after the 1100hp CRM development of the 142mm block.

    Anyway, back to the two rather different last versions of the 142mm stroke V8, i.e. the mechanical 800 and the CRM 900, I'll put it this way:
    In ChiTown boots, I wouldn't regret having missed the 900. :)
  2. mapism

    mapism Senior Member

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    The current V8 CRM is available with up to a 1300hp output, but the same block it ain't (see my previous post).
    Mind, they didn't start with a completely clean sheet for the new longer stroke block - which in fact still has the very same 128mm bore of old.
    But I think it's safe to say that it was the most important development that MAN ever made to their lineup.
  3. leeky

    leeky Senior Member

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    Should that be "stroke" instead of "bore?"
  4. MACKLIN

    MACKLIN New Member

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    I had a 2008 for a few years.

    Things I liked:
    - Good boat, decent quality and riding. Bow and stern thrusters and yacht controller made things easier.
    - Easy to find parts and figure out the different systems. Good access to the systems around the boat, except in the engine room.
    - Flybridge very comfortable with enclosure and A/C
    - MAN engines run great, just a had a few minor issues with sensors and the common problem with the display losing the hour count
    - Hydraulic platform is very convenient, had an 11 ft Whaler

    Things I didn't like and why I wouldn't buy one again:
    - MAN service cost is ridiculous, got hit with the exorbitant 400 hr service
    - Cramped engine room, no easy access to check even basic functions.
    - No lower helm, gotta be up in the flybridge all the time, not always practical.
    - Could use some more beam, feels less than the advertised 16 ft. The 11 ft Whaler extended along the whole beam on the platform, it took a beating running down there. The platform does not provide enough coverage since it's curved to the inside leaving the dinghy's outboard exposed to a lot of spray. Also had to be very careful while backing up into the slip not to hit the dinghy. I'd expect this shouldn't be a problem on a boat that size, with that supposed beam it should be able to handle a 13ft Whaler but it even got tight with an 11.

    I think most people run away from this boat for the cost of maintenance of the MAN's.
    LARRYH likes this.
  5. ranger58sb

    ranger58sb Senior member

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    Thanks for the latest posts. That other thread helped, as do these newer bits and pieces.

    For me, important take-aways are that engine room space isn't good, and changing the MAN filters is a pain in the neck... given that I usually prefer to do my own routine maintenance.

    On the Sea Ray 58 Sedan Bridge... are all the filters inboard? Or at least accessible without extra-major contortions and a small boy to help?


    Colorful? Can you elaborate?

    -Chris
  6. mapism

    mapism Senior Member

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    Correct. Apologies for the typo.
  7. mapism

    mapism Senior Member

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    I can't remember any typical/recurring faults.
    After all, as already said, we are talking of the very same block, and I believe that the 100 additional ponies squeezed out of it (at the same max 2300 rated rpm, btw) only came courtesy of electronic management, with no other major redesign.
    So, even if clearly they couldn't get more than 900hp out of the V8 old "short stroke" block, I'm afraid I can't point you to anything specific to be checked, if that's the reason behind your question.

    OTOH, I'm aware of several V8/900 powered boats which experienced all sort problems: engines stuck in limp mode, lacking power, or even completely dead, and requiring a MAN engineer to be restarted.
    No first hand experience, thanks God, but I did hear some horror stories from owners of boats powered by those engines.
    And that's in sharp contrast with the V8/800, which is at the opposite end of the scale - in fact, even in the event of a catastrophic electronic failure, your only problem with them is that you can't shut them down anymore, unless you know where the manual button of the stop solenoid is, and you push it by hand.

    Now, the 900 was the MAN's first CRM V8, and I believe it suffered from a mix of teething problems, coupled with dealers lacking competence to handle it. Pretty sure, CRM electronic components require a whole different set of competences/experiences, when compared to any mechanical engine.
    So, it might well be that a V8/900 powered boat, supported by some competent mechanic, can run just fine.
    'Fiuaskme, on a boat, I'd rather have a powerplant that doesn't require a computer wizard to understand it.
    Then again, horses for courses: if you can count on a good support from someone who knows his onions, you might never have any reason to complain with the 900s.

    Ref. filters, they are normally located on the right side of the engine, when looking at it from the flywheel.
    This means inboard on one engine (either port or stbd, respectively for straight shafts or v-drives) and outboard on the other one.

    But IIRC, it's also possible to use a remote installation kit, to have the filters inboard on both engines.
    That depends on the boatbuilder choice, rather than on the engine manufacturer.

    PS: I'm talking of oil filters, of course (there's two of them for each engine, grouped together).
    Air filters in V engines are by definition one on each side/bank.
    Access to fuel secondary filters is pretty decent.
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2020
  8. ChiTown

    ChiTown Member

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    Anyway, back to the two rather different last versions of the 142mm stroke V8, i.e. the mechanical 800 and the CRM 900, I'll put it this way:
    In ChiTown boots, I wouldn't regret having missed the 900. :)[/QUOTE]

    I am happy with my 2848LE403's . I wanted a another 1-2 knots and but it sounds like it might not be worth it.
  9. ChiTown

    ChiTown Member

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  10. ranger58sb

    ranger58sb Senior member

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    Thanks, all, for updates. There's a 500 semi-nearby, so maybe we'll go have a look at it after the holidaze... see what our general impressions are.

    Maybe these could be a sort-of Plan B, since there really aren't many of the model we've been targeting all along out there in the secondary market inventory. Larger and more expensive than I'd been planning for, but OTOH the layout and features look good on paper.

    -Chris
  11. mapism

    mapism Senior Member

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    What sort of WOT speed can you achieve, and on which size/displacement?
    Those very same engines are good for 33kts on my boat (56+ feet, 67k lbs).
    And I can cruise anywhere from 18 to 26/27 kts.
    For myself, more than that would be just wasted.
  12. ChiTown

    ChiTown Member

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    Full fuel, 3/4 water, Dinghy, 4 people, VEEM 5 bld 28 x 30 + 1mm strips + 31.5P
    1850 RPM - 21.5 MPH
    2000 RPM - 24 mph
    2100 RPM - 26.5 MPH
    2200 RPM - 29 MPH
    2300 RPM - 32MPH
    2350 RPM - 33 MPH
  13. mapism

    mapism Senior Member

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    Your max RPM suggests that the props are just right, but unless by MPH you actually mean KNOTS, the boat surely ain't a speed demon.
    I mean, when I mentioned the 33 kts of my boat with the same engines, that's actually 38, if expressed in mph.
    And 33 mph means 29 kts, just to compare apples with apples.

    Then again, depending on the boat size and weight, there might be nothing wrong with that.
    Sorry, but I'm not familiar with your Sea Ray - what length/beam/displacement are we talking about?
  14. ChiTown

    ChiTown Member

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    Yes, that's correct. Hence my thinking of the 900 H MANS. Anyway, the boat out of the factory per Boat Test would do 35.8MPH (Power and Motor boat said 36 even) and I believe that was a lightly loaded boat as there wasn't a lot of detail in the report/video. I just put the new VEEMS on her, and the Veem guys thought we 'd get bit more top end but not a lot.

    The full boat spec's are in a post earlier in this three 58'8"LOA, 16' beam, 51,500 lbs dry.
  15. mapism

    mapism Senior Member

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    Interesting.
    Your boat is a couple of feet longer than mine and 5" less beamy, but most importantly, about 5k lbs lighter when dry (the 67k I previously mentioned is when fully loaded).
    So, overall, I think it would be reasonable to expect a max speed at least in the same ballpark, or even a tad faster for your boat.
    Not that the difference is day and night, but still meaningful.

    Anyway, top speed aside, if the boat goes on the plane easily also when fully loaded, in your boots I certainly wouldn't regret not having the 900 CRM engines, for the reasons already mentioned.

    And if you ask me, when boating for pleasure, 20 kts is more than fast enough.
    If and when I can't take it easy to go anywhere, I very much prefer to not even bother turning the engines on, rather than risk to run out of time for some unpredictable reason... :)
  16. ChiTown

    ChiTown Member

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    Thanks mapism. I would like a bit more speed but it seems close to the numbers published in the original boat test reports (assuming they were lightly loaded at that time) so I guess its what it should be.The boat does seem to hit a wall at 2750 rpms regardless of weight / loading. In addition, it does get 2 +/- MPH faster in the mid range (1800-2100) when the fuel load is lower, but the top speed seems not effected so much by weight. The VEEM guy was a bit perplexed as well; even got into a whole discussion of water depth (I've seen those threads as well). That said, given we spend most "fast" travel time in/around 20 knots its a bit moot. However, its another thing to understand and there are an endless amount of such things in boating!

    Hope your enjoying the holidays over your way!
  17. mapism

    mapism Senior Member

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    Yep, there's plenty of factors affecting the final results.
    Size and displacement are usually the most important, but of course there are others.
    Maybe the hull was designed to optimize the ride at "normal" cruising speed, rather than to squeeze the last few knots out of it.
    Which in turn could well mean that any additional power might only achieve a very marginal result...

    Anyway yes, thanks, I am having some good time onboard, in spite of the (by now usual, around here) covid-related restrictions.
    I hope you are also enjoying your holidays at your end, though I guess you can't do much boating in Chicago, at this time of the year...?
  18. ChiTown

    ChiTown Member

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    Good to hear, unfortunately we’re house bound for now enjoying each other, but some water and fresh air would be a blessing. Need to be down south in the US this time of year to properly enjoy a boat. That said we’re normally in the UK for Christmas through new year and of course no boating , unless one counts an odd ride on a canal boat. Best and happy new year
  19. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    The 58' Sedan Bridge is a good sea boat as well as a good layout. One of the best Searays they made, IMO. With the 900's they cruise at 28 knots. Top speed should be around 33 knots. I ran two of them long distances. Bear, De to Toledo, OH, and the other from Boca Raton,FL to Conneticut.

    They're definately range limited at cruise. If you fill the starboard side up first, the port tank will only take about 1 gallon per minute until she starts leveling back out. Engine room is a little tight, but can get to most everything. The 900 common rails installed in them are good motors, and not really anymore to maintain than CATS if you're replacing aftercoolers every 6 years.
  20. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    The stb MAN has a remote oil filter stand keeping them inboard, inside if the stb clutch.
    Then all filters in inboard.
    As a good boyscout, Changing the oil filters is not a big woo, if you are prepared.
    Just keep in mind, it takes an evening and next morning to do it with minimal mess.

    If your not long and skinny (real skinny), forget about getting to the port starter or port electrical connect box.
    Also the oil cooler outside on the stb engine (know oil leak issue).
    I had a two-three-steep with a twist maneuver down pretty well keeping up the 2 Vacu-Flush systems (forward port), Shower sump (forward center, low) and water heater (forward stb) and still did not smash the air filters. Not to bad for a 80", 275lb guy.

    Getting behind the Oh-No gen set is another issue. Just keep breathing and corkscrew around the port side. Ware long pants and move slow to keep from getting cut up. Some old cushions or pillows help.

    Just remembered, check over the exhaust dump cans real well. Had a bad weld under the hard shell on one customers.
    Built by Marine Exhaust Systems in Riviera Beach, FL. They do not repair them, Just builds you another one.
    You will see a white or light spot in the black hard shell. That's a salt puddle.
    Previous owner covered up with paint.

    Typical of most searays; A/C hoses had sags every ware collecting silt. Ended up replacing the hoses to the bow cabin's self contained A/C system with a 1" lines and changed it's discharge overboard forward instead of coming back to the drain manifolds.
    The single 24Kbtu system in the enclosed fly-bridge sucked. Took two 24Kbtu systems to keep it cool up there during the summer. Their own raw water pump was also installed.
    Oh, the port and stb drain manifolds will foul and require their own acid treatment every couple of years. Maridians (FL Built) had the same issues.

    I was so glad when the owner sold his 58SD.
    Still not a Ray fan. But I learned to luv those engines.
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2020