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Sailboat to trawler, but which trawler?

Discussion in 'General Trawler Discussion' started by SailorGreg, Jun 19, 2014.

  1. karo1776

    karo1776 Senior Member

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  2. HTMO9

    HTMO9 Senior Member

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    Catana

    Karo, I have visited the Catana Yard in Canet-en-Roussillon some 12 years ago (flew in via Perpignan) and I have sailed their 58 ft Cat at that time. I have seen their building methods and quality and was impressed. The internal layout was well thought out but their philosophy about the arragement of the sailing gear (i.e. main sheet handling) and the unprotected steering positions were very strange for me and hard to adopt. The boat sailed ok but maneuvering under engine power was not by far as easy as I thought. That Cat b.t.w. was the boat I got seasick on in 2 to 3 ft sea :eek:.

    A daggerboard catamaran behaves really different from a monohull, I must say !

    As far as I know, Catana went bankrupt twice since my visit and had at least one owner change.
  3. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    Ok, how about a Neptunus 56' or 55? The 55' Royale/cabriolet you're not giving up anything and can do the great loop without taking anything down or off........They're solidly built and the interiors are more of what you're looking for. Another thought is one of the various New England lobster boat types....... A Grand Banks.....what's the name of the express they sell......Or even a 52' Searay SB
  4. karo1776

    karo1776 Senior Member

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    I have not followed their business situation but have seen their boats. As I have not sailed a cat I have little comment on the rig. I think the helms look a little different but have not experienced them personally. The thing that is attractive to me is the stability or levelness of the platform because of older ladies not being comfortable with a titling deck as time goes by.

    As to this man's situation I really think he should stay with SAIL.

    And, I think he will have a hard time finding under a million in expenditure hard to achieve.

    I think if he has to go motor... that Lloydes brokered by Campers is his best bet even if he has some work to do... its less than 1/2 his budget so he has something to spend on bringing it up to snuff. Years ago it presented very well and the equipment was in my thinking a forever investment that might need rebuild over the long term but even if needing work compared to more modern equipment. If the aluminum hull checks out on well kept as to corrosion issues he has a solid platform.
  5. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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  6. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    Empress II.

    Lady B started out as Ineke. They are sisterships ... twins really.
  7. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Lady B was about a year old when I was shown around and it had the original crew and owner.

    There was another Australian yacht it hung around near which was called Melita I think.
  8. karo1776

    karo1776 Senior Member

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    1983 Lloyds BEST BUY WORLDWIDE Power Boat For Sale - www.**************

    An article... on the yacht Sentimental Journey. Notice built in 1983 at Lloyes ships. Recent refit at Delta (no personal experience they are in US Florida I believe where the yacht is berthed). 10 Knot top speed on the 250 hp engines/15 gal per hour ( at 8 knots or 9 knots) sir that totals in US measure a little less than 2 miles per gallon. And, noticed the price is way down... motivated seller... as they all are now... . Notice the draft is just about 2 m or 6 feet 11 inches.

    The comments at the bottom of page suggest it is in excellent condition.

    Engine hours and generator hours are reasonable. Those engines last forever and are not expensive to rebuild. They are absolutely mechanical so they can be fixed anywhere [I am an electrical engineer by training but everything now-a-days is expense throw-a-away black boxes which I hate as it ties you to a service network that often is a huge profit center, MTU and Man are famous for this... I think profit is made on service and repair after sale]. Notice rewinds on generator sets... and looks like the hull is good form the ultrasound info... shafts new and reworked to new. Aluminum unpainted bilges can be kept with little maintenance forever it seems.
  9. Old Phart

    Old Phart Senior Member

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    I dunno

    A bit of the old salesman fuzzy math.


    15 / 9 = 1.67


    as in, gallons per mile; not miles per gallon. :rolleyes:
  10. karo1776

    karo1776 Senior Member

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    Old Phart:
    Thanks... I did mean less than two gallons per mile travel... but its easy to misstate... the other way around !!!

    But 1.67 gallons US for 1 nautical mile... is very good.

    To translate in to how the rest of the world understands it...:

    That is about 6.3 liters per nautical mile or 3.4 liters per kilometer

    No matter that is darn good !

    If I was buying the diesel for this boat it would cost around 8.9 euro per nautical mile or 4.76 euro per kilometer. Dirt cheap... to go places.
    In US dollars that would be about 12.03 per nautical mile, very close to 6.00 dollars per gallon.
  11. karo1776

    karo1776 Senior Member

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    Checking and see no one posted much overnight.

    HTMO9 I visited the Catana yard maybe about four years ago. But I had not the time for a trial sail as the ladies were bored. We sailed there and made the stop enroute to Barcelona. If you want to go via sea from Cap d’Ail or Monaco its about 220 nm trip one way. During the season in SOF winds are often not very good or light so unless you use the engine it takes a while to go anywhere. Anyway its is about 70 nm to where we always used to stop off Var; to me Var is FAR so when on the Riviera anything far I say it’s Var to aggravate everybody at home with a Provencal accent! Getting to the Catana yard is a straight westerly shot from there about 140-150 nm. Even if the winds are good for the summer and you make 9-10 knots over the bottom it’s a pretty long trip by sail... a full sailing day (24 hours) near Monaco to Catana yard. Even if you did it in a motor boat at 30 knots its quite a ways.

    We used to go to Barcelona all the time as a little trip over about 10 days and stopping along the way and back for all the treats or visits everybody likes by on the way. And, the ladies like to keep nearer shore. Anyway, if you go by sail you get to the islands off of Hyeres Var, and when we used to go that way there is a very nice hotel with a restaurant everybody likes... so if you start early in the mourning you get there about dinner time... its on the west end of Ile du Porquerolles we used to really like stop and have dinner there: “Le Mas du Langoustier.” Beautiful views of the sea and fort. In fact is was a favorite way point. After you get through there, the crew could do an overnighter sail to the Catana yard crossing arriving in the mourning. Why I posted this is nice to remember good times... and share some info on where to go.
  12. karo1776

    karo1776 Senior Member

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    My point on the 1.67 gallons US per mile nautical (old Phart) is that is extremely good for a boat of 30m. Usually one would expect 3 gallons US per mile nautical.

    If it was a speedster the number would be around 10 gallons US per mile nautical.

    Now in the live aboard thread HTMO9 and I have suggested a european barge, motor barge or sail barge. This would make huge sense here too. Those things seem to be able to go much better than you would think. Why is they long and narrow. At under 10knots with the long narrow displacement hull with just blunted ends is actually very hydrodynamic efficient.

    I think in Holland they use these things in the sea all the time. It might be the perfect live aboard in the east coast and caribbean too. Different yes but you don't always have to go with the crowd.

    Not a comment on stabilizers for a barge... well as they are hugely stable there are two ways to go bilge keels or gyro stabilizers. The gyros configured to prevent roll would be very effective. Here is a nice little motor barge... go to the live aboard thread here as HTMO has posted some fine photos.

    Boats for sale Netherlands, boats for sale, used boat sales, Barges For Sale CVO certified, Full Comfort Luxe MS ! - Apollo Duck
  13. HTMO9

    HTMO9 Senior Member

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    Karo, that is a great find and a true live aboard. If this barge is below 200 GT and could be taken under US flag, it would be a real eye opener in any harbour or marina on the East Coast or in the Caribbean. I love it :D. That boat is ready to go, in great shape and will outlast any of us here on the forum.

    And it would be great for doing the great loop (if you got enough time :)).
  14. karo1776

    karo1776 Senior Member

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    SPREZZATURA Boat for sale

    Now this is a fine boat... and fully refit. These built in this time period most always have rather thick hull plating which is really good for a cruiser. The only thing I don't like for your situation is the unnecessarily large MTUs and that they are that brand... you pay for the service.

    Bernard is an interesting brokerage... little bit of everything and a place to go for used racing sail boats too

    Here is a cat to be built... builder, H2X, is good yard in SOF... the power cat H2X Bradley reviewed in the forum was built by them... too expensive for your budget but I posted for info as to the cat fans

    NAHEMA Boat for sale
  15. karo1776

    karo1776 Senior Member

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  16. karo1776

    karo1776 Senior Member

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    This thread is interesting to me because it is a challenge to consider. First price million dollars and under; second a planned live aboard; its representative of much of the larger core of boat owners in America and the world, and; last is the American East Coast, Mexico, Central America and Caribbean cruising area...

    Not that super yachts aren't interesting but how many of us can afford them. I can tell you from personal experience when you start out poor and have to earn it or start out rich and have to maintain it... it requires lots of work and attention. The little time the yacht is actually used no way justifies it... super yachts are status symbols and not really about enjoying yachting. Days cruising on a yacht like this
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRj5bLy4wvQ#t=61
    are just or more enjoyable than a super yacht just on a more human and humane scale... That's the truth... end of story.

    HTMO9 and I both thinks a European barge is grand and proves the status of unique it does and it works just as well even in American waters. They even can be had, more than a million dollars, in super yacht finish...
    The Hakvoort Fleet - Tigre D'Or

    But when it comes down to it Burger and Trumpy invented the ideal thing a long time ago for those waters... the Burger 82 foot video is it. I long time ago posted Lady Sarah an 85 foot Burger reposer here...
    This what the guts look like... notice the forever unpainted aluminum bilges no maintenance but keeping clean...
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEX8yLYL-mc
  17. HTMO9

    HTMO9 Senior Member

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    The Hakvoort Fleet - Tigre D'Or

    Karo, I should hire you as my personal resarch specialist. One more find like this and you end up on my payroll :D.

    That is more than just a river barge, that is a inland waterway luxury yacht. Not much, I would have done differently. No wonder, naval architexture done by Vripack. Dutch yards have a lot of experience with with those type of vessels. Problem would be the famous 200 GT border, because of the Jones act. But I am pretty sure, if a US citizen would buy the complete design and naval architecture package from a company like Vripack, he would easily find an US yard to build a marble like this for him.

    I like the layout plan of this vessel. Home like comfort, owner couple plus 4 guests and reasonable crewquarters, also I believe, an inland vessel of this size can still be handled by an ownercouple. Most 85 Meter inland cargo vessels in Europe are managed by a crew couple. DE propulsion, most likely hybrid, low draft and low air draft. Especially that semiclosed front cockpit is a great design. Not very much is missing to be just perfect. That is a true live aboard, especially when the crew area is deleted for more living space.

    The only problem for this marble in Europe would be, you need a professional inland waterway skipper licence, because its longer than 15 Meters. I have no idea what kind of licence would be required for the US (when doing the great loop for example).

    Caro, I love that vessel, again a great find.
  18. brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

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    Just for comparison I looked up my favorite canal boat expecting to see a good difference in beams between these vessels. I was surprised that Roi Soleil is very nearly the same size vessel, but with less accommodations.

    But I still like some of the nostalgic aspects of the Roi Soleil over the more modern look of Tigre D'Or
    Roi Soleil Photo Gallery - Special Places Travel - Barges in France
  19. Chasm

    Chasm Senior Member

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    Interesting size, at ~30m it's certainly over the 25m limit of the inland waterway pleasure craft certificate "E". [Sportschifferzeugnis, not SBF Binnen which has the 15m limit.] So at least the inland version of the small patent "C2" is required. - Which has a one year prerequisite.

    There must be a reason why they kept the length below 30m, the small patent goes up to 35m.
  20. HTMO9

    HTMO9 Senior Member

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    Licenses for a river barge in Europe

    As I said and Chasm added, licences for those inland waterway vessels in Europe are a pain in the neck. Even if you have this limited licence up to 25 meter hull length, you are not allowed to drive on the Rhine River, the Danube and some other rivers.

    So, its either 15 meters by about 5 meters with an airdraft of 3,5 Meters (by lowering mast and windscreen) and you are free to go anywhere in Europe with a simple inland waterway leasure boat licence including Canal du Rhone and Canal du Midi. And nobody cares about going by night and under radar with low visibility.

    Second step is the 25 Meter border as Chasm statet but you need special endorsements for the above rivers and :mad: a radar licence, if you want to go by night or adverse visibilty under radar. Plus you will neat a radio licence.

    Above that, you will need a professional inland waterway skipper licence. And that takes years.

    If you accidently have one of those professional tickets, the natural upper limit for a barge (because of lock size and official size limits) would be 33 meter LOA, 6,5 Meter beam, 2 meter draft and an airdraft of 4 meter. Draft and airdraft can be played with by means of ballast tanks and retractable wheelhouses and lowering masts. This max. size would allow you to travel most of all canals and rivers in Europe except those two canals in France because of some locks and tunnels.

    But that means, most of us would need a professional skipper for such a boat. Even with my unlimited commercial ticket, I could only take such a vessel up the Elbe River to Hamburg. At Hamburg, the Elbe turns into a inland waterway and I would have to hire a skipper for the same boat :eek:.

    Thats why I never bothered to upgrade from my 15 Meter steel boat to anything bigger.

    Brian, I like your vintage french barge. You can tell the differences in taste and philosophy between French and Dutch boaters. Both designs are interesting.

    Marmot has found these inland cruise vessels interesting. As I said, that is big business in Europe, also most of their passengers are in the 70+ age. It is a very easy and convenient type of traveling. Those ships stop at most points of interest and the passengers are carried by busses to the hot spots in the area. These vessels provide great comfort, excellent food and entertainment and the service is remarkable.

    Those vessels come in different sizes from 85 Meters LOA (88 passengers, 20+ crew) to 135 meters LOA (200+ passengers and 45+ crew). Below some examples of those ships.

    And if you have to live with limited draft and airdraft on those rivers and you need 3 decks to get the amount of people on board plus all the ammenities you need, somebody has to live below the waterline with partially flooded windows. Very interesting on those ships are the retracting wheelhouses, that totally disappear below deck level and make the skipper navigate only with a bow camera.

    Very interesting, both from the technical aspect and from the financial espect are the detachable inland passenger vessels (pic1), where the complete command and power section and most of the crew quarters are located in the rear of the vessel and connected by couplings to the passenger part. The rear part can be disconnected and replaced (for maintenance or repair) and the forward part continues the journey with a spare unit or can be used as floating hotel with shore power. A very flexible and profitable but not very pretty design. Like space ship Enterprise with her detachable disk and her combat module :D.

    BTW, many of those inland crise ships are built by the Neptun yard, a member of the Meyer Werft company.

    The last pic shows a smaller inland cruiser, an 85 meter by 9,5 meter cruise ship for 88 passengers (Europe class). I was recently shown a design and plans (based on this vessel) for an inland waterway megayacht. Owner suite, 5 VIP cabins, salons, dining, entertainment and wellness like on a large megayacht, two tender and two road tender (cars) for exploring the hotspots near the rivers and canals. 10 to 12 crew and great luxury. That was an interesting concept, a sleek and modest external design. I am looking forward to see it come into reality.

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