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Repowering a 54' Donzi Sportfish

Discussion in 'Donzi/Roscioli Yacht' started by DOCKMASTER, Sep 5, 2019.

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  1. DOCKMASTER

    DOCKMASTER Senior Member

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  2. PacBlue

    PacBlue Senior Member

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  3. DOCKMASTER

    DOCKMASTER Senior Member

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    Yes, we are quite familiar with chockfast. We use it all the time on big engines, gears, pumps, etc. For this small application the 3/4” plates are much easier and allow ease of future adjustments if needed.
  4. DOCKMASTER

    DOCKMASTER Senior Member

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    STBD engine and gear is in the engine room. Gear was re-coupled to engine today. Photos in the engine room are not the greatest due to all the temporary shoring. Pictures are of gear, then engine, engine flying in on the ohvd crane, engine hanging in the rigging in the salon then in the engine room. The aft mount you see on the engine is only temporary. The finished mounts are on the front of engine and the gear. You can see these in the pictures.
    If you look closely in the picture of the gear (only) sitting on the stringers (3rd picture) you can see a white pipe running along the inboard stringer. This is our raw water feed pipe. The old DD's have the pump and raw water inlet in the rear of the engine and so that's where the inlet valves are on the hull. We didn't want the hassle of relocating the intakes and making holes and patches in the hull. So the sea valves remain aft of the engines and we bent 2.5" CuNi pipes to feed raw water up to the pumps and intakes on the left/fwd side of the CATs. These run under the engines so will be pretty much not be seen. They are made in two pieces just in case we ever need to get them out from under the engines.
    Everything seems to be fitting as expected. We now get to see that we have much more clearance around these I-6's vs the old V-12's. :):)

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  5. DOCKMASTER

    DOCKMASTER Senior Member

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    IMG_0362.JPG IMG_0361.JPG IMG_0360.JPG The rest of the pictures for today:

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  6. DOCKMASTER

    DOCKMASTER Senior Member

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    IMG_0359.JPG

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  7. chesapeake46

    chesapeake46 Senior Member

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    Man, that looks good . I am living vicariously through you pictures and commentary.
  8. mapism

    mapism Senior Member

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    Happy to hear that you are progressing as expected. I can't wait to read about the seatrial results!

    CuNi for raw water pipes is a great choice, but 2.5" sounds a bit small.
    I guess that was driven by the size of the existing valves, and I can see why you might have thought that if it was OK for the DD, it should be also for the C18. But did you also check what Cat specifies?
    I might be wrong (and it would neither be the first nor the last time if I were!), but I would swear to have seen 3" valves & pipes installations on a couple of C18 powered boats...
  9. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    Yes, 3" is what I always see on C18's, even the 1000 HP.
  10. PacBlue

    PacBlue Senior Member

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    C18 Raw Water Supply is usually 3".

    Tough call, as 2.5" is a compromise and may affect raw water pump impellor performance. I would be inclined to replace (not relocate) thru- hull with 3.0" Seacock and eliminate any impacts, as this has been a first class repower installation the whole way and would continue along that path.
  11. DOCKMASTER

    DOCKMASTER Senior Member

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    I should have been more precise. The CuNi pipe is nominal 2.5", actual OD is 2.875" and it is fairly thin wall. The ID of the pipe is larger than than the ID of the intake barb on the engines. The connection between the pipe and intake barb on the engine is 3" hose. So everything feeding the engine is larger ID than the intake point ID on the engine. Sea Valves are 3". There are also very few fittings or turns.

    I understand your point PB about adding another thru hull. But I can't get comfortable with that given my cored hull. The hull is rock solid around all the existing thru hulls and trying to insert something solid into the cored hull for a new location just doesn't seem like a good idea to me. Besides, there are other interfearances around the front of the engines that make 3" sea valves there problematic. I don't consider what we are doing with the raw water intake to be anything less than first class. In fact, I would bet most doing the same would simply have run a hose under the engines and called it good.
  12. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    3" hose is 3" I.D. not O.D., stepping up the size of your hard piping to 3" I.D. , even if you keep the 2.5" seacock will still increase water flow over 2.5" pipe given the distance and less restriction at bends and such. Also, If you find out 2.5" seacock doesn't flow enough, then you already have the piping if you change the seacock. I would think that with a 2.5" seacock AND 2.5" hard piping, you're going to wear out impellors faster.

    NOW, you should be fine given your water temperature, but if the boat came to say the Bahamas, this is where an issue would present itself.
  13. PacBlue

    PacBlue Senior Member

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    Ah, the Pipe Size versus Tube Size differences.

    But I was really just trying to say I would lean towards using the current 2.5" pick-up location and replacing them with 3.0" pick-ups/valves and not going through the exercise of sealing up the old pick-up hull penetrations and drilling into new areas of the hull.

    I imagine that the current 2.5" pick-ups are installed in a non-cored area of the hull bottom, pretty common even when a hull is advertised as a "cored bottom"?
  14. DOCKMASTER

    DOCKMASTER Senior Member

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    Let me clear up some things and be very precise here. The seacocks, sea valves or thru hulls, whatever you want to call them are in fact 3" (not 2.5"). The ID of the pipe we are using is 2.695". The ID of the hose barb on the engine intake connection is 2.525". The ID of 2.695" of our pipe is larger than what most 3" pipes would be, depending wall thickness of course.

    Capt J - I'm aware that 3" hose is 3" ID, never said otherwise. Sorry if I suggested it was anything else but can't see where I did that. We actually used an expander to stretch the end of our CuNi pipe so a 3" (ID)hose fits over snugly.

    So to be clear, everything feeding these engines has larger ID then what is required and is larger than the ID of the intake barbs. I don't think we are sacrificing anything. There is no basis to suggest impellers will wear faster nor should there be any restrictions on where the boat can go or what water temp it can operate in.
  15. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    What I am trying to explain is due to the length of your runs, slightly larger I.D. pipe would give you a little less restriction over many feet (head pressure and there is a chart for head pressure and rise and flow restriction), regardless of the engine intake connection being 2.525", and then your bends will reduce some flow as well. That is why every manufacturer I've seen uses 3" hose instead of 2.5" hose, going to the engine. I haven't paid a whole lot of attention to the raw water pump nipple size on a C18 as it's never been relevant to me (I don't install new engines or build new boats), but I've never seen the 3" hose necked down, which leads me to believe the exterior dimension of the nipple on the water pump is 3". Also, I've never really seen any scaling on 3" hose from the seacocks for the engine, however I have seen some on hard piping, which would also reduce flow a little. What I'm getting at, is while you're at it, it would not hurt to go one size larger in hard pipe and neck it down at the engine to 3" for a short piece of hose to go to the water pump inlet.
    There is a huge difference in head loss between just 2.5" and 3" pipe at 10 GPM if you look at the chart. More water flow, more loss. AT 20 GPM it's quite a bit difference.
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  16. DOCKMASTER

    DOCKMASTER Senior Member

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    PB - the pick-ups are 3", not 2.5". And you are correct, they are installed in a non-cored area of the hull. All the thru-hulls have solid hull around them. I doubt I would have bought the boat if it didn't. Does anyone still make boats that put thru-hulls directly in the cored hull? I thought they stopped doing this a year or two after the first cored hulls came out due to water ingress into the coring around fittings ?
  17. PacBlue

    PacBlue Senior Member

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    I would say it depends. There is a way to put any fitting in a cored hull correctly without causing a “soaking” situation, by digging out the core and filling with epoxy but that is not needed here.
  18. mapism

    mapism Senior Member

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    Not in my understanding, DM.
    In nautical applications, whenever an X" diameter seacock, valves or pipes is specified, it's normally referred to the ID, regardless of wall thickness.

    That said, I understand your reasoning on the ID of the engine intake, but there's a big difference between a very short restriction in a connecting point, and any relevant pipe length.
    That's the reason why I asked if you checked what minimum size Cat specifies for the connecting pipe.
    Anyway, the existing hose barb on the engine intake is indeed a good reference point, but NOT for its ID.
    I'd rather check what its OD is (I suspect 3"), and I would want all the line upstream of it, down to the thru-hull, to never be less than that.

    That's all in principle, though.
    Considering the numbers and the differences which are being discussed, I don't think you would never have any real problem if you should decide to stick to the already installed pipe - if nothing else because I guess that replacing it now would be a PITA...
  19. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    When taking about any pipes for water, all relevant measurements are always spoken about in I.D., not O.D.
  20. DOCKMASTER

    DOCKMASTER Senior Member

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    I appreciate all your input. We will have to agree to disagree. Pipes are not talked about in terms of ID. If that were the case you would have to have a gazillion different fittings depending on wall thickness as all the different wall thicknesses would yield different ODs and thread sizes. Nothing would screw together. Think about it now, a 3” pipe is 3” OD, the ID is driven by the wall thickness. Can you imagine if a 3” pipe had different ODs depending on all the wall thicknesses. I’ve been in the commercial Marine business for 34 years and counting. Build and Repair ships all day, every day. Every pipe I have ever seen, every drawing I look at, every Bill of Materials lists pipe by the OD and schedule (thickness)
    Now, of course, flow calculations are based on ID, or the pipe size and wall thickness.
    MAPISM I don’t understand your point about focusing on the 3” OD? Are you suggesting if I used a 3” schedule 160 pipe I would be fine because it is 3” OD ? That makes no sense at all to my simple mind.
    Yes, a 3” sea valve has a 3” ID. But last time I checked you have to screw in a fitting, hose barb or similar to put your 3” hose on. That fitting reduces the ID.
    CAPT J I did speak about ID. In fact, I gave all the exact ID sizes including, by far, the smallest which is the intake fitting from CAT on the engine.
    The pipe is less than 48” long and a straight shot. Not much restriction here. I had one of our Mechanical Engineer’s take a look and they said we are fine. We are supplying more water to the intake connection on the engine than go through that fitting. CAT AGREES.
    Again, I appreciate all the input and this is what the forums are all about. I will be keeping the pipes the way they are.