Purchase Advice Needed

OMW:Response to your questions and comments:

I'm not sure what you mean by covering myself. From what?

Integrity of the builder is a major issue. I believe there are new boat bugs or flaws that a builder is unaware on individual boats that are not necessarily known upon turnover. There are the warranty issues that should be owned up to and rectified when discovered. I also think there are significant issues of which builders are aware and either take the head in the sand or self-righteous approach. And then there are builders who think it makes better sense to not cure the problem but treat the symptom after the sale.

I haven't queried other brokers on whether they recommend surveyors for shipyards they represent, but I have numerous clients who were aboard my new build boat at FLIBS last week to whom I not only recommended periodic surveys throughout construction, but also said that hiring a project manager or qualified representative to live near the yard during construction was a reasonable concept that any builder should welcome.

Again, I can't speak for other brokers, but I have never received a referral fee, gift, or anything from a surveyor.

I'm not sure why there is such incredulity. You need to spend time at some of the yards and see how many new boats they service and how many have common complaints. Or ask new boat owners about their warranty issues.

Judy Waldman

I think you may have lost sight of the original quiry:The original poster had inquired whether he should have a survey done on a NEW 50' Marquis, Sea Ray or Neptunis. I think hiring a project manager would definitely be overkill on this.

Nothing personal, it’s just common practice for any salesperson to recommend or give a client the option for a: survey, appraisal, mechanic, lawyer, building inspector, doctor or any other 3rd party opinion when dealing with potential legal matters.

The reputable brokers offer A LIST of vendors--surveyors, insurance agents, documentation people, and so on--to their clients in order to avoid any possible conflict of interest. The client chooses, not the salesperson.

And, BTW, CAP, your head would spin if you knew how many NEW PRODUCTION BOATS LIKE (= such as...=similar to..) MARQUIS had their propeller shaft struts installed incorrectly AT THE FACTORY which require a hugely expensive shaft removal, targeting, realignment of struts and reinstallation. This is just ONE item that doesn't take 8 weeks to surface, and there can be lots more.

Yes, OutMyWindow, builders DO strive to achieve a high level of quality. And they exhibit integrity in making things right, sometimes well after the warrantee period is over.

Folks, this is not some Lexus built by squads of robotic machinery---It is very much a hands-on affair performed by human beings who are not infallible.

I must assume there is a size at which you would feel that hiring a project manager isn't cost effective; same for a full survey. I also assume that a 10' dink would be within that category. Where between there and 100' would you say the need to lay out $4,000 for a full survey comes into play on a brand new production boat like Sea Ray. How often do you think it's done (not does the salesperson have surveyors if a buyer wants one), and how often do you think it finds something that wouldn't otherwise be found and fixed under waranty.
Please no tangents about 80' semi-customs and antedotes showing that manufacturing defects occur. I've been in this business for a few days. This whole discussion is about a very specific curcumstance. The poster is looking into a brand new 50' Marquis, Sea Ray or Neptunis, not an 80' semi-custom

Whichever manufacturer you choose to purchase a new boat from will undoubtedly be delighted with your decision.
Best of luck!

Lets see now, Marquis, is a division of Genmar and is currently in bankruptcy. Neptunus was closed down, I hear they are now back in business. Marine Max has closed 40 of their retail outlets, and Sea Ray has closed factories.
Nycap thinks a buyer should pay over to his dealer the final payment and wait 8 weeks to have a survey done, then hope that they take care of warranty items, and do it quickly. There is nothing like the pressure on the dealer of not having the final payment, to get stuff done immediately. Survey first, then make the payment.

Actually, I think that anyone who buys any non-commercial boat is a fool looking to depart from his money. That said, yes I expect a manufacturer to honor their warranty. If I have any doubts I wouldn't be dealing with that company, but I'm also no stranger to making that happen. Additionally, I'm still waiting to hear what you expect that surveyor to find that is not readily apparant and will stop the deal cold (which, BTW, will have you in lawsuit hell trying to get your deposit back). So you can pay an extra $4,000 (not financed money) on delivery day, maybe not see your boat again until the following season, and still be stuck with the gremlins that shake lose until after a few weeks when you put your check list together and back it with a survey done then or you can trust that after building 40, 50 or 100 of these boats exactly the same they've probably done a pretty good job, enjoy your season and deal with what comes up as it comes up or better still in the off season.
BTW, I hope you brokers recognize how badly you are trashing the industry you work in. It sounds more like you're working for surveyors.

Tucker, and Judy, and others--far from trashing OUR industry--are huge proponents of it. They are here to impart useful information to those who are not so close to it. They do it out of love for what they eat, sleep, and dream 24/7/365.

Certain questions in this thread have been answered FACTUALLY about nineteen times and from all four corners.

Connecting all those dots...ooooohh, so difficult.

Loren, your industry is in dire need of some type of consumer protection and warranty program.
Spending a couple of million on a brand new yacht shouldn’t be a leap of faith.

In the grand scheme of things, what's $4k for a survey if it turns up items that could potentially be life-threatening or at the very least render your new toy inoperable 15 miles from land on the maiden voyage?

Let the surveyor do what they do, and let you not end up with parts installed backwards that don't get warrantied because the mfr claims operator error in running the boat that way. Waiting any significant length of time to "shake things loose" is begging for a fight with the manufacturer. There are too many complex systems installed by human beings for there not to be errors in assembly. Just because it's a production boat doesn't mean the person working on it that day has extensive experience.

Sorry, but those are totally invalid arguments. $4,000 is often a few weeks salary is for people buying a 40' or 50' production yacht. That's a lot of money. In fact, most of the money involved is the banks. I'm surprised that they don't demand a survey as they do on a pre-owned. We can hire lawyers to check up on our lawyers who are checking up on our accountants who are checking up on our main accountants and they will probably find problems. We can buy every kind of insurance to cover every possible disease or mishap. In the end all we'll be is broke and there will still be companies who will claim that what happened is the one thing not covered or that we caused the problem. We all know that boats are complex pieces of equipment and that things will fail, survey or no. I once had a car that almost burned on day one, yet I still don't hire a mechanic to check out new cars that I buy. I'm sure the mechanic could find something amiss in something as complex as a modern car, but it's just not worth the $200 and the delay in getting my new car. Personally, I trust the USCG, the NMMA, the BBB, the Attorney General and Sea Ray's designers and QC to give me the best product they can put out and to fix the problems that are sure to arise in anything this complex. Failing that, my lawyers can do amazing things for $4,000. Of course if you're talking about a limited production item it's a completely different story. It's also why I recommend only buying from companies who have sizable representation on this side of the pond. That's risk assessment.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but the last few hull surveyors that my clients have hired charged less than $2K...that's a full day + trial runs + haulout. Ditto, more or less, for the engine guy to do his thing.
But then, as the consensus here seems to be, engine surveys on a new boat that already had it's start-up inspection done by the engine distributor would be moot.
So, two large it is.

On a $800,000 new production fifty-footer, that survey costs a whopping twentyfive cents per hundred dollars worth of boat.
Best Buy will zing you a lot more than that for an extended service policy on your toaster.

You all need to start a new thread......Survey New/Used.....This is getting farther and farther away from the question at hand. One or two chime in's would have be fine.I was into this thread in the begining but now its a pissing match.