Posting warnings about crooked people in the marine industry?

Been there: # 1 requirement for surveyor: Needs to be physically fit to crawl and climb around a boat to properly inspect all of the boat accessible and equipment plus being accredited. Require pictures of all equipment (not light bulbs) in question with a prompt written report. Show the comps for valuing boat as Judy said. I would be careful about identifying the surveyor publicly, post enough that others can contact you about him.

And never choose a surveyor because they're the one most available. There's a reason for that often times.

So I am trying to understand the chain of events - a buyer used a surveyor with questionable credentials and possible substance abuse issues who was available on short notice as all the reputable ones where busy and no one knew this surveyor was a dud? And he was allowed onboard by all parties?

I would first recommend that any buyer get a pre-purchase surveyor from the most reputable and toughest surveyor in his region to avoid these exact headaches. Get the punch list upfront and knock them out with proper documentation. Any owner of a steel vessel should get the hull audio gaged and have that documentation in hand as well. Then if a questionable surveyor becomes part of the process, you have the paperwork to have the right discussion. Why leave all these steps to chance?

I am not sure why the seller would put the boat on the market without those two steps, and I would surely know a surveyors reputation before allowing him on my boat, regardless of who hired him. The proper result would have been to research this surveyor in advance and reject him but have a list of 3 reputable surveyors in that are whom you would allow on the vessel.

If the homework was done properly, this particular surveyor would never have been allowed on board, the owner would have proven the operation of the crane/dinghy in advance, and existing documentation would have been in hand to have legitimate discussions on the vessel condition and value.

If a steel or Aluminum boat needs bottom paint, do you think the seller is going to bother paying to haul it and have the hull audio gauged?

I have run hundreds and hundreds of yachts for seatrial and surveys, most likely well over a thousand. There is NOTHING worse for the buyer to see than the boat coming out of the water and the bottom paint in horrible condition. It just really turns off a lot of buyers...…...it's like horrible paint on the exterior of a house, even on FRP hulls. Most buyers just can't get past that, they think if the seller can't be bothered to keep up with the bottom paint, what else haven't they neglected. I always have a diver clean the hull and running gear a day or two before a survey, even if it was only done 2 weeks prior...….when a yacht comes out of the water and the bottom paint and running gear are clean clean, not even any slime......nobody is standing around waiting for the yard to pressure clean it, or scrape growth off of the running gear, etc. and the yard experience, which is the worst part of the survey/seatrial process for the buyer, is as short as possible. Nobody wants to stand around in the blazing sun, at a dusty/dirty/stinky boat yard.

It’s a sellers decision in regards to how far he wants to go in prepping his boat for sale.

In my opinion, the sale process should be started with a prior haul out, fresh paint, address any running gear issues, hull plate thickness, etc. All this done by the owner in advance, before he is taking offers, it not only ensures his boat is in great condition but he gets a better sales price as all the issues should be addressed in advance. And the wow factor is there while the boat is hauled out, you never get a second chance to make a first impression.

If the seller is reluctant to make this commitment in advance and wants to play the punch list/price reduction game, it is his choice and becomes a game of uncertainty, basically a gamble with a series of events that may not turn out to his liking.

We have sold our last 5 family boats this way and 3 out of the 5 got a higher sales price than what we purchased them, all by doing our homework upfront, including pre-purchase surveys by the most reputable guys in our area. This allowed us time to fix punch list items that we could do on our own without the involvement/cost of a boatyard.

PM sent!

Is a three year old audiogauge considered valid in a new hull survey? The buyer did his homework and was given the green light by another local surveyor, and should have warned if he knew otherwise. I am not aware of any professional organization policing their members. Not unusual for a boat for sale to need a bottom job. The condition of the bottom paint, hull, zincs, and hull sides should speak for itself as part of the hull survey.

As a seller you have control over how you present your boat and who inspects it. If you don’t know the status of a surveyor, a quick call to a good local few boatyards is all it would take . It is still your call to move the process forward.

As a buyer, you can rely on a group like SAMS or get recommendations from your broker, boatyard, other (successful) buyers or even other Survey professional networks like NAMS. If you get a junk report, you can with hold payment to negotiate a redo , pay in full and get a second opinion or walk away from the boat and continue your search for the right fit.

3 years out on the audio gage just asks for a current update but is a good tool to identify any critical areas.

Going to a lawsuit investigation raises the whys and how did this happen question? From the information presented, It didn’t seem like the boat failed the survey entirely and the buyer walked based on questionable levels of information, totally within his prerogative , and some part of it hit his walk away button regardless of the competency if the surveyor.

It seems like the key issues could have been addressed earlier in the process by a more proactive sales approach by the vessel owner, so why trigger the lawsuit reaction? Because he didn’t buy something he wasn’t comfortable with? That’s what I don’t understand, sounds like he was just wrong buyer for that boat . What am I missing?

A 3 year old audio gauge is just a guide at this point and no longer valid IMO, especially if the bottom paint is really bad. Most insurance companies want one every 3 years. If the vessel is classed I think (not sure) their time frame is about the same.

I'm just making very broad comments here, not to anyone personally.

After doing a bunch of surveys, I've seen buyers walk away for **** near anything sometimes. One relatively new boat had a water leak and a wood interior panel about a 2 square foot area turned black, buyer walked because of that, said it had black mold. I've had another buyer get a survey on a 4 year old yacht, list had 13 items that were relatively minor (anchor chain not attached to the boat was one of them). I managed the yacht for the seller and she didn't want to fix the items prior to. He wanted every single item fixed before he signed the acceptance didn't want cash. He wanted to buy a new boat, but they told him a 1 year wait. I manage the boat for him now too for the past 2 years, he told me, he simply didn't want to deal with the hassle of calling different vendors, dealing with them in his back yard, and the time line to fix the items.

I can tell you this much, bad bottom paint turns at least 50% of buyers right off and then you're having to overcome that obstacle to sell the boat. The brokers that tell the seller don't fix this, don't fix that, we'll deal with that on survey, are making the sale THAT much harder for themselves and the seller. Same with the ones that get an offer that's a bit below the owners price that he wants to net...….and tell the buyer they won't present it to the seller because he won't take it. Who knows what mood the seller is in that day, get an offer, counter it, you never know and all real offers should be presented to the seller. I work a lot of times for the seller, and a lot of times I work for a buyer and am their #1 advisor and this is what I see and hear from many of them.

As for the surveyor mentioned in this situation, it is a real shame. I have a feeling that most surveyors have enough cover your ass clauses in their contract, that it would be REALLY hard and expensive to sue them and win......plus, if the guy really is a drunk, he probably doesn't have much money anyways.

FWIW I sent Judy a PM with a surveyor's name based upon her description of events. I hit it on the first guess. Some guys should just retire and stay home. It's a shame for the losses of his "victims". Capt Ralph is correct. Not funny at all.

Maybe this forum needs an Angie’s List type section for marine contractors/ services?

It's a profession that isn't regulated, just like yacht brokers in most states. Yet when there is talk of regulation everyone protests government involvement.

That means the diligence in selecting and managing a surveyor is even more critical. It can mean travel, time, delay.

Then that brings us to the other element and that is that really all a contract on a boat represents in reality is an option to buy and a requirement to go through one or more steps. One can then back out for any reason as no boat is ever going to be perfect. I've seen many sales fall through over very little and I attribute many of those to buyer's remorse. There's really nothing of significance wrong but the buyer has just had second thoughts so uses what little there is as an excuse.

My warning remains the same for all to research and get referrals and interview and then select the best surveyor for boat and the best for engines you can find. Unless you have a personal relationship with someone they are not going to warn you about a competing surveyor, especially over the phone. They might give you a hint in person.

I've seen surveyors lack of thoroughness miss things that allowed a sale to go through that probably shouldn't have. However, I've also seen sales not go through because a surveyor was so non committal that like the case Judy references it gave a buyer cold feet and scared them away.

If I was a buyer, I would be there or have my representative (captain/engineer, consultant) there for the survey. Buyer's say they can't make the time or it's costly, but it's worth it.

Capt J , you summed it up. I have been told same thing, don't fix or repair we'll deal with that on the survey, servicing and such just starts the time clock. I always thought a seller should avoid giving reason for a big deduct or a rejection for a long list of survey recommendations. Some hull and engine surveyors are accused of being too thorough from the selling side. Isn't that the purpose of paying $$$$ for surveying?

Maybe a separate web site is needed for such, to address all aspects of the industry. Builders, brokers, surveyors, marinas, boatyards, suppliers, shippers, and more.

Good idea.

You could post it! lol

I've had information on builders before that I really wanted to share, but I waited until there were court filings I could reference so I was sharing publicly available information and facts. Then I could refer to testimony or filings or even depositions.