Playing CSI on a windlass failure

It isn't my objective to make C4ENG look bad, he has done an excellent job without my assistance.

As far as my looking bad, well, I guess I will just have to live with the reputation of being strident and less than tenderhearted with incompetent poseurs costing owners a fortune and putting the value of other yacht engineers in question.

I would just as soon see them go away before they hurt someone.

You are assuming he had manuals. I've lost track of how many boats I've been on with no systems manuals. So going to the internet and asking advice from knowledgable people can hardly be called a poor choice.

I never asked you to keep your opinion to yourself. I only tried to point out that there are ways to teach and inform without being condescending about it. And your are assuming he is getting payed a chief engineers wage. For all we know he's getting payed commensurate with his skill level.

All true. But why not work at help the ones who want to learn become better engineers without the high and mighty attitude? And agian, we have no idea what he's getting payed do we?

Nobody I saw was defending his ignorance or blaming others for it. And again, at least he was willing to admit it. Rather than just wade in and muck it up. More than I can say for some "engineers" I've met.

I will agree that anybody who does not understand basic hydraulic systems should not call him or herself a chief engineer and except pay for that grade level. And if he really is over his head on this boat my guess is he will be packing his bags in not to long. But perhaps he's just weak in this one area. If so, no harm done in helping him along with his education, while at the same time pointing out the path to further knowledge in a constructive manor.

Now of course if what he had posted was down right idiotic, he would have been fair game.

Returning to the basic point for a moment, C4ENG.

You might want to examine all the other hoses fitted to those units because either way you slice it the pump shouldn't be capable of generating enough pressure to blow the hose. It could very well be that the swaging machine used hasn't been calibrated properly in which case all your lines will be in jeopardy. It could be just one poorly executed swage, but then again.

Fair enough comment on the manuals. It is apalling how many boats lack proper documentation but again, whose responsibility is that? Going on the internet to a BBS instead of the manufacturer is a very poor choice of troubleshooting and repair strategies.

As one with a few years teaching marine engineers through Unlimited C/E, I can assure you that I enjoy teaching the subject. As a working Unlimited C/E who regularly gets down in the bilges I can assure you I have minimal tolerance for those who claim the title but can't carry the load.

He calls himself a chief, he works as a chief, if he is being paid he is overpaid. If he is working for nothing the owner is getting what he is paid for.

He defended his ignorance by claiming he couldn't know everything and I read that as meaning he couldn't be expected to know how his boat works. He was very quick to blame the deckies for causing the problem and appeared to be looking for support in that conclusion, and for that alone I would fire him in a heartbeat. We simply can't afford that kind of crew.

If he were a student he would receive patient and thorough tutelage. He would not be dispatched to an operating vessel to work unsupervised as a chief engineer.

If only that were the only area. I guess you haven't read the dead genset thread where he mentioned the "charge leaking out." This illustrates electrical skill comparable to his grasp of hydraulics. Even the most open minded evaluator would be hard pressed to describe this fellow as merely "weak." If we were to apply the IMO definition of competence it would be easy to describe his vessel as unseaworthy due to lack of competent crew. The owner should hope that his attornies never have to argue otherwise.

It struck me as idiotic and made him fair game to use as an example of the quality of people that some owners have to endure until they decide it's not worth it and sell the yacht.

I'm not talking about loose; thats not the issue, if one swage fitting blew then suspect the rest. As for it being a new boat, well I suspect your troubles are just begun. Normally its one contractor that will knock up all the lines for the boat - one contractor meaning one swage machine and one technician. Wouldn't be an Italian build by any chance. Good luck

Hi,

Is this the type of reusable fitting you are dealing with?

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/2F505

It has an outer sleeve with a coarse LH Thread that winds onto the hose first, the inner part winds into a fine RH threaded collar in the end of the sleeve.

They can usually be reused a number of times if they are not physically damaged.

Hi All
I searched for a Muir VCR 11000 and went to a Imtra site that doesn't list this windlass but has a vertical windlass series with fairly good drawings and prints it appears that they use a flange mount with o-ring to the motor but there is a pressure bypass that would protect the hoses/fittings if the are not defective . They are designed to be operated by deck crew / captain trainee's so they are usually idiot proof. With out being able to see this particular installation but knowing the usual design I'd vote for defective equiptment over operator error

I am a big fan of these field serviceable, re-usable type fittings.
In the USA you can also find them through Parker.

Hi,

Page 14 -15 of this shows some pics and tech specs for this Unit

http://www.muir.com.au/pdf/muir_brochure_mega.pdf

It also seem they supply the Hydraulic Packs as well

On Page 51: MASTER CONTROL HYDRAULIC POWER UNITS
Comprising pump, motor, valve block (with
pressure relief valve and pressure gauge),
and oil reservoir. Various capacities
available. Full technical specifications are
available on request.

Regardless of the position of the brake- on, off, partly wound on the system pressure should not ever get above the relief valve setting.

The system should have been speced and built to operate at the maximum pressure plus a safety factor. Having the brake on would only make the system work at it's Max operating pressure not more so I tend to agree that a defective fitting, hose or system protection failure is the root cause not the Deck Department- As long as they were not allowed near the equipment with tools but hey that's a whole other thread on it's own

Nail on the head K1W1 ! you win!

Hi,

That's a Swagelok Fitting, it's not a 100% reusable as the rings get compressed onto the pipe and can't be reused as is.

The sizes is ofteh stamped onto the back face of the nut close to where the pipe goes in.

They are used on solid pipe not flexible.

As you have evidently found they can be a real bear to tighten up when there are a line of them close together and each one has been assembled and installed while there was not one other on each side if it.

Have a look at this: http://www.swagelok.com/FittingInstallVideo.htm

And here is everything you ever wanted to know, it will stop you suffering insomina.

http://www.swagelok.com/downloads/webcatalogs/EN/ms-01-140.pdf

Those who have worked with Swagelok fittings must be doing a lot of head shaking right now.

It is the ferrules I am saying are non reusable not the two nuts or coupling body, they can be reused until the crevice corrosion can't be overcome with Silicone!!!

Sorry, I wasn't referring to your post K1W1 ...

I should have quoted the "chief's" post where he suddenly discovered he somehow replaced a swagelok without even knowing what it was.

I would be very wary of using that little assy in any way shape or form, here are the volumes and pressures of your windlass. No plastic hose even if fibre reinforced like the photo is designed to operate at anywhere these pressures nor is that Nylon fitting.

Power Supply HYDRAULIC
Input Power (KW) 7.5 7.5 -
Hydraulic Flow (lpmin/USgpm) - - 30/7.9
Maximum Flow (lpmin/USgpm) - - 55/14.5
Pressure (bar/PSI) - - 140/2050
Maximum Pressure (bar/PSI) - - 175/2500

What has actually gone wrong with the system, has a pipe split or was it leaking at the fitting? Welding the pipe to the fillings would be a good alternative to the thing you show there.

Do you have two Anchor Windlasses or are they both inter connected hydraulically?