Pirates: Part Two

Anybody know if crews entitled to full pay for time spent as hostages?

Guys, I am sorry to break your idilly, but I rly can't take it anymore. It's the short-sighted views like those that bring up an all-famous Hanlon's Razor.

On to the matter.

- Oh they are all idiots, pirates should be shot on sight.

Great idea.

- And those people "worrying about how it may affect pirate's modus operandi of sparing the crew", which side they are on?

Like, you are with us or you are against us fallacy. Remind me, please, where exactly did they found the sworn-and-promised WMDs in Iraq?

Now take a minute to consider your point and the point you so blatantly dismiss. Really, why ever those Somalians spare crews? To have ransoms?
Know what? they can just get ships - and cargo - hidden. And with admittedly more hassle, still get some serious profit off selling goods, and possibly via some schemes ships itself.

Obviously, everyone saying the other thing that you think is a cretin not worth attention (I know that cuz i'm prone to think so myself). But for a moment, say, we do shoot pirates unvariably?

- They will dispose of the crew of any successful hijacking automatically. (As a side note, I am not a mariner, yet, I found that comment about "pleasant crew vacation" to be exceptionaly bad style. It's akin to the old "if she is raped she asked for it" stuff - you can't get more retarded then that.)

- They will use lethal force outright themselves against everything coming their way.

The irony here is that a Tomahawk missile costs magnitudes more then a sloop full of those guys, $10 monthly income average.

What you end up with is depicted pretty well in the abovementioned Black Hawk Down: either you try to fight "civilized way" an uncivilized guerilla war - and loose - or you fight the same way yourself.

You know, the history knows only two ways to "win" a war against guerilla tactics: compromise, or genocide.

Let me elaborate. You think it's possible to implement the "perfect lockdown": Somalian water border is patrolled 24/7, everything coming out is shot. Sounds good. Now go ask Coast Guard about all that business with "narco-submarines" running up from the South. They will enlighten you about just how realistic such a "lockdown" really is (or how costly, which is ambivalent).

Now, there is the other way. Genocide. It works. Just several months ago, I discussed with my friends an idea of seeding a whole Somalian shore with anti-personnel micromines. (We have the one called "leaf" here in Russia. the size of an actual leaf, 100% plastic aka SOL mine-detectors, easily carpet-dropped from bombers. I'm sure there's something like that out there in US too). These aren't powerful enough to kill, just to rip a leg off... which in a piss-poor country with no universal medical access probably means the same AND a better example. And that's one idea of many. At least it costs a tiny fraction of what a real sea patrol would.

Now, back to original topic. So you guys think it's some special, minority "*******s", and the majority of good Samarit.. sorry, Somalian people. Who, given a proper incentive, will throw bandits out themselves.
That's a wrong assumption again. You have a country, where 100% people have no legitimate government for over 20 years, 100% people live under everyday threat of violence, and 99% of people are dang poor (with the other 1% realizing perfectly that they got what they have by force). Somewhy you think that some, what, 10, 20, 30% of those are dedicated bandits and pirates, and the rest are good old farmers. Huh?
And I'm not racist or anything here. I'm NOT saying they are all 100% hopeless criminals, pretty much the other way around. It's just the way of life for them. You know, monkeys and early men used to rip bananas off the trees. Was it a crime? Quite possibly. Was it risky? Sure, you go climb like 20 meters to get one, could easily fall and injure or even kill yourself. (I tried myself.) Right now, these ships are something like a banana on the tree for Somalians. Risky, yes. Yet, a good way to feed yourself.

And if the palm is sentient, and tries to get more slippery to make climbing it for bananas more risky? Men would improve their hooks, ropes and climbing spikes.
You want to make palms so impossible to scale that people would abandon the idea of getting to all these nice, tasty and nutrient bananas just hanging out there? Hoo hum.

So my point is, if we try, just a little, to actually understand the situation... we might just get, as a byproduct, why all those "idiots in governments" hadn't implemented the obvious solution of "just killing every offender".

And no, I do not pretend to actually know what to do. And I don't want to provoke a flame too. I just try to get the point across that if there's something obvious, yet many supposedly qualified people refrained from that for many years... there might just be a catch or two.

P.S. And to pre-empt a... certain kind of reaction, I admit to being on pirate's side wholeheartedly and on their payroll. That's why I compared hijacking victims to rape victims above, which implies comparing hijackers to rapers. Our recent research indicates that it's a good publicity and goes along nicely with an eye patch, plank walking, and other romantic associations with pirating.

With all due respect (and I do have one to many of your posts around here), why the heck anyone still bothers with Iraq, Afganistan, or may I add Chechnya, instead of dropping a few nukes on their heads and be done with it completely?

If you can't tell the difference between attacking a nation with nuclear weapons and shooting pirates there isn't much point in our discussing the issue.

This is a dodge, not an argument. Do not pretend to rebuff the point by rebuffing the cosmetics of it.

If you can provide us with a conceptual difference between shooting people in violation of international law and treaties (however it is) and using nuclear weapons... in violation of international law and treaties, no more then that - by all means.

(Please, do not pretend that nuking is somehow inherently more "evil" then just putting good'ol 5.56 FMJ between someone's eyes before that someone even did anything.)

As a side note, you cannot legally issue a naval blocade these days without such an amount of international sanction that noone can concievably "get'em all". It is purely an act of force over right (and one of ongoing issues with actual anti-pirate efforts going on). Again, feel free to provide us with a conceptual difference between "just" shooting people you want and nuking them. Or use another rhetoric fallacy.
For ease of reference, I can prepare one for you: "guilty until proven innocent" assumption applied to Somalian ships. It is contrary to what makes a "civilized world", but who cares when you get destroyers, helicopters and ultimate knowlege about what should be done with them all bad guys. I already suggested that in my original post - "fighting uncivilized yourself".

Yeah... "just bomb 'em!!"
Great logic there.

It's certainly worked in the past, hasn't it.

There are 2 Billion too many people in the world for sustainable life, its going to take a bit more than a sling-shot to sort that little lot out.

If we want life on this planet to continue, stop breeding. Not just you, all of us, now. Kill off the old and the weak, do not wean the slow ones and the feeble.

Only the strong will survive, the inquisitive and the ambitious will succeed.

!!!!Oh crap, that's the bloody pirates again.

Fish

I think this an old Monty Python sketch.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0kjHQpvgB8

Forget it, Monty Python and youtube don't get on

Hi,

They probably fed and watered them as well, lets hope when they were let go it was either from the bridge wings directly overboard or tied to the anchor chain.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/8586729.stm

Alas, it is not the case. It seems the pirates are left in better physical and economic condition than when captured.

"On Thursday, the pirates were returned to their own vessel and released near the Somalian coast with “sufficient stocks of fuel and food”

http://www.nrc.nl/international/article2440879.ece/Somali_pirates_released_from_Dutch_frigate

And this really is one of the best pirate recruiting efforts NATO has come up with:

"Dutch marines board a fishing boat and free two dozen Yemenis from Somali pirates. They seize and destroy AK-47s and a rocket-propelled grenade launcher but then put the nine bandits back in their skiff and set them free."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30329846/

I guess the US Marines in Tripoli thing was just an historical fluke. This must be the modern US version of "tribute."

"After a failed attempt to hijack the freighter MV Barakaale about 150 miles east of Aden, Yemen, the suspects were taken into custody and held for 28 days aboard the destroyer USS Farragut. They were not placed under arrest."

http://www.stripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=68857

Tell me again why we are wasting fuel oil cruising around the area. Is it just to make sure the Somalis get a few good meals on an air conditioned ship while their own boats are refueled and provisioned? What is truly amazing is that there are so few pirates given the benefits for even the most inept and incompetent of the bunch. They literally have nothing to fear.

Anybody have a URL where to send a CV. Starting to sound like one of the best and safest jobs in this industry.

These guys must be heading out to look for a barrel full of fish ...

I just finished watching the NBC Dateline coverage of the Maersk Alabama seizure. Facinating. As distasteful as the crews suits appear at first blush I think it's a good thing. The pirates used deadly force as first contact and they don't seem to be major brain trusts. I can't imagine why killing them isn't the first option before they get to board. Hopefully the suits will force the shipping companies to protect these crews.

it makes me sick at my self when i think of the 18 months i spent in nam , and the countless others that gave thier lives for things like this too keep happening

travler

Wasn't there something in the news recently about pirates being shot at / shot down who took aim on a naval vessel?

Ahhh yes... Google News to the rescue (couple of references on the same incident)

http://liveshots.blogs.foxnews.com/2010/04/02/pirate-season-is-heating-up/?test=latestnews

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/02/world/africa/02briefs-Pirates.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/01/AR2010040103584.html

Hi,

Here is a bit from the LA Times about the latest skirmish

http://www.latimes.com/news/la-fgw-...gn=Feed:+latimes/news+(L.A.+Times+-+Top+News)

Finally, somebody got it right!
This is the only way to deal with these pirates!

Hi,

Here is the latest on the Russians Pirates.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/8675978.stm

could not have happened to a nicer bunch of guys

travler

From the press article:

Outstanding!

Off the record, I can only hope the Captain gathered his finest men and asked them if they were up for a little 'target practice' for said raft once a few hundred yards off their stern.

Greetings,
Ooops...They should have had a MAP!