Panama Canal Question

Freebird · Oct 26, 2021

I’ve decided to pass on this one. It could be a great trip or a disaster. There will be other, less rushed opportunities to experience the canal.

I’m 64 and sort of retired, at least from a Social Security/pension standpoint, and I’m seriously considering purchasing a boat in the PNW and knocking cruising up to Alaska off my bucket list. I’ve done an inside passage cruise ship deal and kept thinking about how much more fun it would be on a private yacht.

Once that’s out of my system, I’ll make it back to the Tenna Sea via the canal, Grand Cayman, Jamaica, BVI’s, TCI’s and back across the islands. Making a long trip with no time constraints would be something new for sure. I’ve done all The Great Loop except the sections between the Statue of Liberty and Lake Huron, so that would give me that too. If not for COVID, that would have happened year before last.

I have enough friends who would be interested in making different legs of that trip, so expenses wouldn’t be an issue. I’d rather do that in a year or two vs finding myself on a sinking Broward, wondering why the “heck” I didn’t wait and do it my way.

leeky · Oct 26, 2021

olderboater said: ↑

I will stick to my answer. While umbrella policies may cover some things not insured, such as libel or slander or false arrest, in most areas of liability it is an "excess" policy and covers excess over other policies. I said "typically" and typically if you have no marine liability insurance then it will not cover marine claims unless it has a specific rider saying it does. Geico further states

Umbrella insurance may provide coverage when your homeowners, auto, and boat insurance policies limits are exhausted.

Umbrella insurance provides coverage for claims that may be excluded by other liability policies including claims like false arrest, libel, slander, and liability coverage on rental units you own.

It's the first of those two points that marine insurance fits under. From another site about what umbrella policies do not cover. "Boats are another common area of exclusions. Some companies cover certain sizes or types of watercraft only, while others don’t cover them at all unless you have an existing boat insurance policy."

From Farmer's, "Umbrella insurance provides additional liability coverage — over and above the limits on your auto and other personal liability policies." Their standard policy only covers your primary residence, two motorized vehicles, small sailboats and motorboats under 50 hp and everything else is optional.

From Forbes, "Umbrella insurance provides “excess liability insurance” (meaning additional coverage) beyond the liability insurance already in your auto, homeowners and/or watercraft insurance policies. It’s for expensive situations where medical bills or repairs exceed your “base” auto, home or boat policies." and also from Forbes, "Umbrella insurance kicks in when your “base” liability limits have been reached." Then they add areas that umbrella generally covers in addition and those areas are:

-Libel, defamation or slander. For example, if you post something defamatory about someone else to a website, you could be sued.
-False arrest, imprisonment or detention
-Malicious prosecution
-Wrongful eviction or entry
-Invasion of privacy

I've had an umbrella policy for 20 years and it's very specific including mention of it's exclusions. I've had many discussions of umbrella policies with insurance experts, both risk management professionals and brokers, and they've always made it clear that the umbrella was limited.

Umbrella does differ from strict "excess" policies as they often have "follow form" clauses and umbrella policies typically do not so if a basic policy excludes something, an umbrella may still cover it. When an umbrella covers starting with dollar one as I've mentioned above or as a special rider then it's referred to as "drop down." Like most forms of insurance the policies may widely vary, but my advice to the OP remains the same, that just because someone claims they have an umbrella policy does not mean they're covered for marine insurance. Clearly I haven't seen the man's policy but I do have a thorough understanding of how umbrella policies generally work and until I did see it, I wouldn't even consider running his boat.

Umbrella policies are actually quite inexpensive for the limits they generally have and the only reason they can be is that all normal claims are covered by other policies. What you've quoted from Geico is a very general web statement but not reflective of this situation. Similarly, the quotes I've posted are general and not like clauses pulled from actual policies. Even umbrella policies though have exclusions like all other policies.
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My only point was that your statement "Umbrella only extends to things covered by other policies and typically requires them being mentioned" is not true. You even give examples of things covered by umbrella insurance that are not covered by the other insurance. My post gave other more apropos examples.

I'm not arguing that umbrella insurance doesn't provide excess liability insurance for things covered on other policies. I'm only arguing that your statement that umbrellas can ONLY extend to things covered by other policies is not true. Obviously, one would have to actually look at the umbrella policy to see what's covered.

leeky · Oct 26, 2021

Freebird said: ↑

Not trying to argue as I simply don’t know, but your/GEICO’s bit reads to me as covering things a liability policy may not. No liability policy equals no umbrella coverage as I read that.
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You could be right; I didn't look into that. I was just addressing olderboater's absolute statement that umbrella insurance only covers things that are covered in other insurance policies.

leeky · Oct 26, 2021

DOCKMASTER said: ↑

I believe you are not interpreting this correctly. Olderboater is correct, the umbrella only covers if it is listed in an existing policy. I just went through this with my insurance. In a very simplistic example, you cannot cover one car with a policy then get an umbrella and assume you can have 10 cars and they are all covered under your umbrella. An umbrella provides additional or supplemental liability of your base coverage but you have to primary coverage in place first.
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I agree with the highlighted portion of your statement above. That was not my disagreement with olderboater. Umbrella insurance can, also, cover things that are not covered in liability policies. Olderboater and I provided examples of things not covered in some liability policies that are covered by umbrella insurance.

Freebird · Oct 27, 2021

Well, this trip may be back on again. We didn’t get into conversations about insurance, but when I told him I couldn’t make the trip, he told me the work that was being done wasn’t completed yet, and the departure date has been pushed back to mid-November.

We did discuss the need to get some time on the boat before we headed offshore, and that too is in the works. He went over a long list of things he had done to it, including a $$$$$ electronics package, and he’s dropped some serious money into it in other areas as well.

I’m looking at moving another boat out of FLL and may be able to lay eyes on this boat. That would go a long ways towards making a final decision.

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Panama Canal Question

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leeky Senior Member

leeky Senior Member

leeky Senior Member

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