Nordhavn Yachts Lawsuit

Dennismc - MeThinks you got it wrong ... It's got nothing to do with logic - it's judgment ...

Maybe John Ruskin has it right - especially when it comes to big ticket discretionary spending -

“It is unwise to pay too much, but it is unwise to pay too little.

When you pay too much, you loose a little money; that is all. When you pay too little you sometimes lose everything.

Because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing you bought it to do. The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot.

It cannot be done.

If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run and if you do that, you will have enough to pay for something better.

There is hardly anything in the world that someone can’t make a little worse and sell a little cheaper – and people who consider price alone are this man’s lawful prey”.

- John Ruskin 1819-1900

Just watched a 60 Minutes special about bootleg drugs. IMHO, anyone who fails to buy anything "Made In America" under our controls and standards to save money gets what they pay for.

Hi,

I wish that it were as simple as that in the real world.

To be master of a vessel that can complete a circumnavigation other than as the owner accepted by the insurance Co. and maybe with an acceptable Flag of Convenience you would normally expect to be asked to prove the pre requisite for sea time.

If it is necessary to complete a circumnavigation before coming seafarers I doubt that many Maritime Colleges would exist today.


Let alone those shafted there .

This is untrue. I have run and stepped foot on a lot of Asian built yachts. Yes, they build a good boat. However, there are certain area's where they are not as cleanly built or done as well as American boats. The reason US buyers have leaned towards Asian built is because of price. The only thing you can maybe say they do better (in general) is woodwork. They usually do good fiberglass work. They are costlier to maintian as they get older compared to US built, on most of the ones I've seen. This is what I've seen on Asian boats (have not been on a Nordhaven).

Their wiring is overly complicated with solenoids everywhere, excess wiring everywhere, inverters/chargers, batteries all over the boat, and stuff like this that could be much more simple and easily done.

The fuel systems are typically overly complicated and usually have hard piping running everywhere and valves and could be made a lot simpler with less plumbing.

Also, things like sea-strainers are typically Asian made copies of Groco's that you cannot get a new basket for, so one by one you have to convert these parts over to US built parts. And Awlgrip paint on most of them that should have an extra coat on it, and has to be re-painted in less then 10 years.

You produce in China not just only to have cheap labour and ****** quality. The quality is all up to what you invest in foreign expertise.

Further, when I compare with Holland, Asia has still normal rules in setting up a factory with rather healthy human rights.

In Holland are some great yards, so not the best of the world, but people buying there don't give a **** to pay 120 million or 150 million. Or what's the difference for them paying 15 million or 20? it's all in the name as well.Of course quality is outstanding.
But the regulations in Europe by Unions as well the safety and environmental stuff are at the point it is called insane. Do we think it is normal to calculate from E 60 up to E 100 an hour of labour? Don't know how that is in the US.

But Asia is mainly doing production and smaller custom work. I think it is fair when people say it is bit cheaper and quality is fair. I don't think what I saw in former reply to say an US guy must be uneducated and poor to buy that.

Look at McConnagy what they build in China. Don't think that is cheap or bad.

The 'Nordhavn vs. The World' polemic here is interesting, but I'm still trying to figure out this loom business...

Anybody?

You silly person - that has nothing at all to do with this thread....

Hi,

How do you figure that one?

The first post says there is a court file that deals with these boats manufactured in or before 2004 where the wiring looms were not up to the correct standards/quality.

A brief description of this is given in Post No 7.

I'm also waiting to figure out the loom business and why its lawsuit worthy.

K1W1
And those are the only 2 posts having to do with "looms" in a thread that contains four pages of discussion. That's all I meant.

Well said.

Yep, you get what you pay for. Provided that you invest in foreign expertise and maintain serious quality control at every step of the building and commisioning process you can get the same end quality as yards in the Western part of the world, even Holland. More and more yards in China start to understand this and yards like McConnagy take quality very serious.

When you're an entrepeneur setting up business over here is a complete breath of fresh air compared to Europe nowadays. Setting up and running a profitable business within the limits of the law is nearly impossible in Holland.

Working 100 hour weeks and paying 48% income tax will eventually create a complete braindrain over there.

__________

Nothing more to say about it as you 100% got the point.

Here in China it is heaven to produce something and we decide self what quality we build.

When you ask the Chinese to decide for that level they will always choose the highest profit.

The problem with building a company from the top down is that the top's priority is to make money. Below them is the middle management who would like to live like the top, and have the opportunity to do it buy shaving a little here and a little there. Below them you have the bodies, not paid to think, no need to care. This is a formula for a successful business. Lots of money to be made.
When you build from the bottom up you start with a workforce willing to sign their work. They won't let some weasel above them make them look bad, so you end up with good managers because of the number of eyes on them. Of course that's an expensive way to do it, so the top guys won't get as rich.
Of course the bottom up companies can't compete with the top down companies on price, but whose boat would you rather be on when you get stuck in 20' seas or owning 40 years from now.
Not to say you don't have good and smart workers everywhere, nor bad and stupid. It's just that you get what you pay for in boats and people. For the last 25 years or so it's been all about price and profits, and we've hit some notable lows. I get a feeling that some people are realizing what's been lost.
I like to deal with people who build boats because their fathers and grandfathers built boats.

__________

So when it is up to you then newcomers have no chance? And there can be no dedicated people who were not from family involved?

Never heard about people who worked from broomstick department all the way through a company up to know all steps with huge experience?

Sorry to say but carefully said I never heard something so.....uuuhhh yeah what to say....?

Anyway it is of course your free choice to where you want but don't say that these are the only ones.

In Holland I know few of these and I will not let there be build a bed for my dog.

I believe you should earn your place at the table not buy it, and that takes time...and best of all if you can have generations. That's why those old Hatteras' are so revered.

Rybovich, Buddy Davis. Need more? And again, it's not to say that a good boat can't be built anywhere if the right practices are followed, but that's expensive to do anywhere. I just feel more comfortable with a name that's been around for 30 or 40 or 100 years, and that's worth my paying a bit extra for.

True, but nowadays we have a wealth of knowledge at our doorstep in the shape of internet. We do not need the passing on of information over generations anymore.

Quality boats will never be cheap. But I am pretty confident that you can recruit and fly in the complete crew of Moonen at expat salaries and still build cheaper over here.

The time an everage business spends on paperwork has increased by 700% over the last 40 years in Holland. This is paperwork to comply with governments regulations. In order to comply with environmental, health & safety regulations investments need to be made that can not be done by beginning boatbuilders. The established industry comes up with new regulations that they pass on to the government every year, and by doing that they eliminate all initiative from the small guy. As a small business owner you're treated worse than people who live on the dole while you are the one paying for it.

I worked 100 hours a week and payed 48% income tax. This means that I worked 48 hours -which is way more than an average working week in Holland- for the upkeep of society. I used to spend about 10 hours a week doing checks and completing paperwork for the government. So I basically worked 42 out of a 100 hours a week for myself trying to keep a small sized company going.

Apologies for getting off topic but I had to let off some steam.

My name is Tirekicker and I am a political and economical refugee of Holland.

__________

Tirekicker,

Then we're sole-mates. I did few years ago the same.

And for others here, in China some do fly in the best of the business from the states and Holland.

Others want to do it cheap to get ALL advantages like max profit but short term thinking.

But everybody feel free to build where you want and pay all governmental taxes and many other idiotery. No problem at all.

As long as there are enough people want top quality but for reasonable prices I think is OK.

"And for others here, in China some do fly in the best of the business from the states and Holland."

The thread is unraveling but before it gets too far along, the seed of a new thread lies in the statement quoted above.

Having seen some of the work coming out of yards with platinum reputations I can say with some degree of confidence that even the best yard will deliver junk if it lacks what I call "adult supervision." All too often a foolish owner will assign a young captain to oversee a project and it goes down hill from there. When there is no competent engineering supervision it only gets worse.

Too many newly delivered boats head straight to another yard to correct the problems created by lack of quality control and competent oversight. I feel sorry for new owners who are lead down this path by brokers and their unholy alliance with yards.