Nordhavn Expedition Yacht Fish 75 Sinks?

I also have been a member of both these forums for a couple of years and whilst the Nordhavn forum is very positive about their brand I havn`t seen or heard of anyone being kicked off for being negative about aspects of poor design or service; although most of the owners who post have all been more than happy with their boats and the way in which Nordhavn has dealt with any problems they may have had.
I`m surprised that other forum owners have been kicked off this site for advertising a brand specific forum which I would not have thought been competition for this site; but its nice to know the rules and see how a site is really run.
I would like to say now that I am a Garment Manufacturer and supplier and have no associations with either site or Nordhavn except for being a potential owner of a long range yacht; type and manufacturer not yet decided upon.
Paul

At dock pumping capacity

Apologies Cap. Bill. I didn't mean to imply that the boat had ONLY the two 660 gph pumps.

It also had a large hydraulic pump and bellows-type manual pumps, however, with no one on the boat to start the engines, the hydraulic pump, and manual pumps, were useless.

As to whether or not the automatic electric manual pumps should have been higher capacity, that is a fair question. I have a slightly smaller Nordhavn and have three similar pumps in the engine room, but will certainly be considering an upgrade, as a result of this incident.

My guess would be that few, if any, production power boats, in this size range, have sufficient 'at the dock' pumping capacity to cope with a two inch hole in the bottom, six feet under the water. I usually think of Dashew as the reference standard on these types of issues, and just searched his site, trying to determine what he puts on his FPB series, and couldn't find a detailed spec sheet. Anyone know?

Ken W

I understood you about the boat having a large capacity hydraulic pump onboard. It's just my contention that a boat that size and supposed quality should have at least one very large capacity automatic pump in each bilge area from the factory. And Nordhavns are touted to be a cut or several above your average production boat.

A 660 gph pump is what I'd put in a shower sump or a wave runner, maybe.

Considering most boats seem to sink at the dock with nobody on board having a high capacity non-automatic manual start pump is more of a marketing tool than a boat saver.


As to what Dashew puts in his boats:

"Bilge Pumping Security

We don't expect our boats to leak. Still, there need to be bilge pumps on hand for every eventuality.

This starts with a hydraulically operated damage control pump located in the engine room. This can be manually controlled, or run with a float switch in each of the watertight areas. The suction line pulls from the engine room, each of the three interior sections, and the forepeak. The nominal capacity of this pump is 160 gallons (600L) per minute - that is three 55 gallon drums of liquid every minute.

There are 10 gallon (38 liter) per minute capacity PAR diaphragm bilge pumps for the forepeak, interior, and a double pair in the engine room, each with its own float switch and manual override."

Looks like Nordhavn was following the "the reference standard" advice. Maybe it's time for a new standard.

just a dumb question , i guess these boats don't have bilge alarm's or watch alarms either so that when you are away it makes a loud sound or a flashing light or some kind of warning there is a problem .

also i have travled up the coast of calif with a couple of those boats (don't remember witch models ) and i don't think they were enjoying the ride it looked pretty wet from a couple of miles away

travler

It's interesting to note that the hydraulic pump on the FPB 64 is only 160 gpm. In other words, the 200gpm flowing into the boat in this particular situation would have overwhelmed even the hydraulic pump.

A little off the topic, but let's imagine that someone had been onboard, and it had been an older boat with a 'rusty' thru-hull, and the handle were to snap off while trying to close the valve? Now what?

I honestly don't know how much force there would be from the water coming into the boat, and whether 'sticking a rag in the hole' would accomplish anything or not. I'd like to think this one through. Hopefully it will never happen to me, but there are a lot of marinas out there with funky electrical systems. Damage to perfectly healthy thru-hulls is not impossible, and has probably played a role in more than one sinking.

-Ken W

Travlr: Not at all a dumb question, and I'm sure it is one that lots of people are asking.

Nordhavn's do have audible alarms in the engine room. On my boat, I've accidentally triggered the alarm several times while washing out the engine room. It is VERY loud, and drives everyone crazy until I figure out how to shut it off.

My guess is that the alarm on this boat did sound, and there was no one around to hear it, or at least no one who cared.

The boat was on a side tie and I don't know how close the boats were in front or in back. The sinking occured at night, and the waterproof door was open between the engine room and the lazarette. Perhaps the batteries were underwater within 15 minutes? I'm guessing something electrically happened, which silenced the alarm at some point.

Remember that old story about "If a tree falls in the forest, and no one is around to hear it, was there a sound?"

There are several systems sold (such as Boat Nanny, Skymate, and Spot) which will notify an owner via cell phone, if the bilge alarm sounds. I would think this incident is a reminder that we should consider buying, and using, these systems.

Ken W

"... let's someone had been onboard, and it had been an older boat with a 'rusty' thru-hull, and the handle were to snap off while trying to close the valve? Now what?"

That's what damage control plugs are for.

Good point Marmot.

I do have the Seakits Damage Control Kit on my boat.

http://www.fourwinds-ii.com/v2/?c=misc&i=014

I suspect that hammering one of these wood plugs into a thru-hull isn't as easy as it sounds. But, it sure beats the alternative...

Actually, I already had on my list, as a result of reading about the N75 incident, to make up some sort of plasticized page with the location of all the thru-hulls, and post it in a highly visible location, and also to move the Seakits rescue kit to a much more visible location.

-Ken W

A note

This seems silly, While I do not have a yacht I do have a Bayliner Trophy that has enough pumps to run 3200 an hour, maybe I am paranoid ( I was in the Coast Guard and saw many boat sink due to ineffecient pumps, some with loss of life)

The Missus and myself are looking at the new Bayliner 266 Discovery and already have talked to the Distributor about increasing the pumps in it. My thought is that is the first thing you do.

Just my opinion.

I'm sure Nordhavns, which are good solid boats, have more automatic bilge pump capacity than just a couple of pumps.

I have over 20,000 GPH (333GPM) of automatic bilge pumps in my Sea Spirit (as well as the engine pump, hand pump, and gasoline powered aux pump I bought). But the bilge pumps are spread across various watertight compartments. In a breach, only a couple of those pumps would actually see water, with the rest remaining dry. Also, I bet my 20,000GPH capacity is really more like 10,000GPH (166GPM), since the water must be pumped UPHILL to the surface, and pumps are rated without taking that into account.

I don't believe that those pumps would have kept my boat off the bottom in a 200GPM or more leak in the engine or living quarters.

The Seakits people advised me to install an alarm BELL (not horn) on my boat, since bells bring out a crowd but horns get ignored. I haven't done it yet, but may well do so.

Dan

We had a horn inside the boat and an orange flashing beacon outside, for water intrusion above a feet in the bilge. It once happened when a 2" AC hose burst and sea water was pumped in..!

Nordhavn Dreamers

I too am a member of both sites and I can verify that very good information is exchanged on the Nordhavn Dreamers site. Callum does tolerate criticism as long as it is substantiated and not heresay. I serously doubt Callum is sneaking around trying to promote his site since with 1100 members in two years and about 500 posts a month about Nordhavn, it is growing on it's own.

David ( or am I really Callum?)

Really? For the record, when an occurrence repeats itself, it's not an accident. It's intentional. Callum has signed up under numerous names to promote his site on YF. Here's an exert from an email sent to another member by Callum...

Let's get back to the thread subject...

Not wanting to hijack this thread and remove it from the topic at hand, I did want to comment on the bilge pump issue.

I had a handle strip itself free from a 1" thru-hull fitting and no choice but to remove the valve while still ion the water. I had prepared myself with wooden dowels and basins to remove any water that got it until I got the hole plugged. From the time I removed the fitting and got the wooden plug inserted, know how much water came in? Approximately 1/4 cup. That's it. There was almost no pressure behind it and the wooden dowels insert rather easily. It stemmed all water flow IMMEDIATELY! Of course, I had my wife stand watch until I returned with the new valve.

Take into account that a 2" opening will let in 4 times the amount of water a 1" opening will, at sea level that is still only 12.56 GPM, or 750 GPH...easy enough for 1-2 moderately sized bilge pumps to handle...as long as they were working properly initially and didn't burn out after the first hour or two.

Also...I wonder how many passerby's thought the bilge pump streams were simply HVAC ports!?!

Maybe at sea level. But once you get a bit below that, it's a whole (pun intended) different story.

A hole 2" diameter below water line 12" flows 2900 GPH

At 3 feet you are looking at about 5300 GPH

Am I reading this correctly? Sounds very inadequate for any boat much less a yacht. My boat has a 2000 GPH primary and a 4000 GPH high water pump in the main bilge. Plus a boatnanny high water alarm if the water gets more than a couple of inches above the primary pump level. This plus 3 other 2000 GPH pumps. All these are automatic. I don't feel it's adequate yet but sounds like its a lot better than the 75' Nordhaven. Even if the pumps won't keep up forever they'll at least extend the amount of time to fix the problem. BTW the manual pumps are next to useless if you are fighting any volume at all. See how long you can keep it up.

Emergency pumps or not. Most 75' I've ever been on had 4 or 5 rule 3700 gph pumps with automatic switches. I'd expect a Nordhaven to have the same. 660 gph pumps are ridiculously small IMO. 2- 3700gph pumps may not have kept even with the water leaking in depending on the height it was pumping out (head). BUT it might have slowed it down enough until someone noticed it.

I have nothing against Nordhavn except they seem over priced. But there was a Nordhavn 50' being rebuilt about 4 years ago up at the Everett marina that had sunk. He was just finishing it up and He had for sales sign on it. It got me thinking how much does a person have to disclose or can he hide the fact that it had sunk. Kinda like a car that has been totaled and rebuilt, then sold to a innocence buyer.
Will the 75 be fixed and sold??
There is also the 76 Nordhavn in the Seattle area that hit a frighter. They disclose that it did but are almost bragging because it did not sink. After it is sold two or three times will it be mentioned again.
Sorry got off topic but when you spend alot of money you should know what you are getting.

My understanding is that the 75 will be fixed. Were I the owner I would argue as hard as I can that the boat should be written off, but I seriously doubt the insurance company will do that. The boat was not under water very long, and there's a probability the engines and generators can be cleaned up and restarted. Personally I would hate this if it were my boat, but I do think that is what will occur. I do not know the owner, and have no idea if this will cause him to sell the boat or not.

Nordhavn's policy has been to disclose material events in the life of boats they sell, and I would suspect this event is now a permanent part of this boat's (the N75's) "past."

As to the N76 that hit the freighter, it is impressive that a Nordhavn could t-bone a freighter with so little damage. That said, the seriousness of the repairs did hurt resell. It is now back on the market for a second time and I suspect the accident is less a factor in the sales price, than it was the first time, because it has gone many thousands of miles since that event. I would expect that as the boat runs more thousands of miles the stigma associated with the accident will become even less of a factor in the sales price.

I wish there a way to buy insurance that says, "If anything major happens to my boat, I'd like a new one please." However, there isn't, and probably if there was, I couldn't afford it. That's too bad, because regardless of the quality of the repair, there is always a nagging doubt that the boat is "just right" and insurance companies aren't setup to provide recovery for this intangible, but very real, cost.

Ken W

Nordhavn' policy to disclose is great but they might not be the listing and or selling broker

As far as N76 it has not travel hardly any. The last time I drove by Mercer Island it was still sitting there. When I looked at the boat I saw some little flaws from the repair and when the broker said things like the master shower glass exploded. And Damaged not just in front but all the way down port side. I was done looking.