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Low shore power voltage

Discussion in 'Technical Discussion' started by NYCAP123, Jul 2, 2013.

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  1. Capt Bill11

    Capt Bill11 Senior Member

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    If this is the boat you are doing the Loop on a buck/boost transformer might be a good investment.

    But I would give your shore power system a good going over. A boat of that age could have a lot of connections that are corroded, loose, etc. that can all add up to significant voltage drops.
  2. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    That's been done, but those fuses would easily clear inspection.
  3. Chasm

    Chasm Senior Member

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    The measurements you take at each point should be always the same. (details below)

    Start by measuring at the pedestal. In this first step you want verify that the panel meter on the boat is working correctly. If that is so, great. The problem is on the marina side.

    If the voltage at the pedestal is more than a few volts higher than on the boat (= allowing for long distance voltage drop on the way to the panel) you may have a problem and the new goal is to locate it. The convenient way is to check the end of the the power cord first and then within the boat.


    How to do this:
    Use a voltmeter that is known to be working.
    Don't touch the pointy end of one lead while probing with the other one. ;)

    Measure voltage between ground and one phase. -> Should be 120V
    Measure voltage between ground and the other phase. -> Should be 120V
    Measure voltage between both phases. -> Should be 240V


    If the Voltages between ground and the single phases are 120V but the voltage between both phases is 208V you have 2 out of 3 phases of a three-phase installation instead of the split-phase you are expecting.
    I don't know if this is acceptable as far as local codes are concerned or not.

    The phases should have similar voltages. 120V and say 90V indicates problems.


    Actual voltages: AFAIK the tolerance in the US is +/- 5%, so 114 to 126V would be ok. (227 to 252V for the 240V)



    Assuming(!) you measure 240V at the pedestal and the panel reads 208V.
    You have a defect and finding it is the new and burning priority. Often quite literally.
    The voltage drop is most likely caused by increased resistance. This could be corrosion or a bad connection (not plugged in fully, a screw that came loose, ...). Either way, if you draw current through an resistor it will get hot.
    Back of the envelope worst case calculation: 30V and 50 Amps - a 1500 Watt heater. In other words: a fire.

    It could also be a defective panel meter, but that is rather unusual and more importantly an unsafe assumption.


    How many electrical fires happen:
    A loose/corroded connection generates heat while current flows. The heat breaks down the insulation material. Carbonized insulation material becomes conductive. Sooner or later there is a situation where current will flow if voltage is applied, accelerating the breakdown.
    Such an situation can simmer for quite some time, depending on the inflammability of the surroundings.
    At some point the connection may come loose enough that arcing starts and the temperature goes through the roof. This usually starts are fire. It may also melt enough the wires off to break the circuit. Another option is that the arc develops between hot and ground, this should trip the circuit breaker.



    And that is why it is an good idea to check if the problem is on the marina or boat side. ;)
    As far as I have read the thread the problem seems to be on the marina side.
  4. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    Npt to say the marinas don't have a problem, but I think the main problem is on the boat. That's based on the only other boat that seems to have the problem is another old Hatteras and the marina manager's statement of having 208V while I'm only drawing 180V.
  5. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    Start at the shorepower cable and work down the line. Check the end where it plugs into the boat and it should read the same voltage. etc etc.....
  6. chesapeake46

    chesapeake46 Senior Member

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    Being a transient gypsy type ...:) did you have this problem at the last marina also ?

    If the fuses in the Hatt were the culprit you'll know pretty quickly by touch and sight.
    If it's loose terminations it'll prolly be really discolored at the termination point and possibly the conductor insulation will really look nasty.

    Fuses can get " stressed" if they've been wacked with an inrush but if they are the " one time" type they usually fail by way of blowing rather than increasing in resistance and causing heat. If they are the "renewable link" type fuses then it would be best to give them the old heave ho anyway and put "one times".

    The jaws that hold the fuses will lose temperance and snowball the heat effect when the spring tension is lost that is supposed to grip the fuse cartridge. This is easily seen as great discoloration in the brass holders.

    I'm not convinced it's the boat though. Seeing the other Hatt with a booster says to me that it is a system issue.
    Conductors too light and maybe low voltage from the utilty to begin with.
    Worn out outlets and all the terminations in the pedestal.

    I can see the marina guys repairing the cables now.... Splicing cables under the pier...." It'll be ok, Vern, the tide almost NEVER gets this high" :rolleyes:
  7. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    Yes the problem did occur at the other marina, worse. They did have a problem with their grid. However I suspect they appear to be not bad enough to affect most boats. I think we have an age related weakness that make us more suseptible. The boat next to us that's using the voltage booster is a '91 Hat I believe. At 22 y.o. it could easily suffer the same "weakness". Also, we have the problem whether on the port or stbd. shore power. So I suspect that the problem is further up line from the shore cords (although both could have a problem). Those fuses sound like the first place where the two sources meet. They're also the most likely place to take abuse from power surges and likely to have never been changed over the past 30 years if they didn't blow, hense the first main suspect.
  8. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    Each side has its own fuses since they are right near the inlets, but being troublesome both sides could be corroded

    Did you look at the electrical diagrams? They are usually on board most hatts. And can even be re ordered from the factory.
  9. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    You're talking about the on-deck S.P. conections. Haven't tried them. 50' of 50 amp is a lot for an old man to deal with on a transient boat when he can instead push a button. :) These S.P.s are on cablemasters and the feeds meet at a central location. So I would expect fuses at that point.
    We have the electrical diagrams, but again, only on the boat 2 days. Will certainly avail myself of them when I'm able to check the system myself end to end.
    BTW, after doing some reading I think you might have been in error when you wrote: "Doesn't it have an isolation transformer where you can adjust the input voltage with jumpers or moving terminal? Most hatt MY do". That doesn't seem to be to purpose of an isolation transformer. "Isolation transformer" seems to be another name for a galvonic isolator which grounds on the boat rather that using the shore ground. They can't be used to manually regulate voltage as far as I know. Relatively new knowledge for me however so don't hesitate to correct me if I'm wrong.
  10. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    I don't have transformers on mine or on any of the boats I have run long enough to have to troubleshoot electrical systems. I do know that an isolation xformer is NOT a galvanic isolator. I believe the isolator use circuitry instead of a transformer with windings.

    You should ask on the hatt owners forum at Sam's, many regulars are very familiar with these boats.

    The fuses are next to the inlets, by the pilot house doors. If the boat has been upgraded with glendinings then I doubt they are used. The end of the cord should be hard wired to a terminal block with a circuit breaker nearby.

    On most of these boats, the xformers were installed in the genny room.
  11. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    Seem to recall seeing it in the gen room (busy room with 2 gens, 4 a/c's, watermaker, etc.) Will check when I'm back on the boat, but I don't recall any adjustments.
    "An isolation transformer is a transformer used to transfer electrical power from a source of alternating current (AC) power to some equipment or device while isolating the powered device from the power source, usually for safety. Isolation transformers provide galvanic isolation and are used to protect against electric shock, to suppress electrical noise in sensitive devices, or to transfer power between two circuits which must not be connected. Isolation transformers block transmission of the DC component in signals from one circuit to the other, but allow AC components in signals to pass.
    Suitably designed isolation transformers block interference caused by ground loops. Isolation transformers with electrostatic shields are used for power supplies for sensitive equipment such as computers or laboratory instruments."

    I'm familiar with the fuses you referenced, but we're using the Gendennings. So my place to start will be at the breaker box. I think I've probably gotten enough education to get me started on the troubleshooting. Thanks.
  12. jhall767

    jhall767 Senior Member

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    Based on everything you've said it sure sounds like you are running two phases of a 3 phase line through a split phase isolation transformer. If how to check for this isn't clear to you then NYC take your own advice - bring in an expert.
  13. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    You may have missed this in post #5 "I asked the marina we're in now to check the accuracy and got a blank stare." So my plan is to get educated, and do some troubleshooting so I can at least point the "expert" in the right direction. Last time I had a marine electrician on board a boat we bought it had the anchor light instead of the masthead light hooked with the nav lights. He opened the helm panel and was planning to start cutting red wires (it was speghetti of red wires) until he found the right one.:eek: I had to suggest he go up on the mast and simply reverse the wires there. Experts aren't all they're cracked up to be. Just throwing money at problems on boats doesn't work. I've been sorely disappointed with the quality of yards (and "experts") in recent years.
  14. jhall767

    jhall767 Senior Member

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    Hey I'm right there with you on the quality of "Experts". Very hard to find a true one. Also on self education. I'm just concerned that a lot of the diagnostics being discussed are skipping over a very likely problem. I think Chasm's post is probably the best course to follow. Many people (including "Experts") don't fully understand three phase A/C Power vs single phase. Or the multiple types of there phase. Note: I'm not claiming to be an expert here either. I'd be looking for an electrician that works in the commercial trade and is familiar with 208Y/120V. Find a schematic for that setup and you will see it describes what you are experiencing.

    HTH
  15. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    I don't understand it either, but I expect to soon. I've found that (in almost all trades), that unless you can tell the experts exactly what the problem is and what the fix is you don't stand a prayer. So now, at this stage of my life, I have to learn another trade.:( Used to be you could tell your yard 'Here's the symptom' and they'd say 'Here's the solution. Your boat will be ready Monday'. Nowadays it's the blank stare and a month later nobody has even looked at it.
  16. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    Get a multimeter and start measuring Voltages. Start at the pedestal, then at the end of th cord which should be a terminal block near the glend. tub. Then follow the wiring and measure wherever you can

    Another possibility... Damaged conductors inside the cord. This happened to me a couple of years ago, I think I posted the pics here... One day I noticed one the 2 50 amp cord was pretty hot, but oddly not near the plug, about 15' away. Turned out the wire in the original glend set up was not tinned and had badly corroded. There were no signs outside the cord on the outter insulation

    I didn't look at the voltage that day, I turned off the breaker right away but I wouldn't be surprised if badly corroded wire wouldn't cause a significant drop.

    Although you may have mentioned earlier having tried different cords... Don't rememeber
  17. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    Yes, same problem on both port & stbd. SP so unlikely it's the cable. I think the most likely weekpoint is where they connect to the boat's grid. With luck it'll be a bad breaker, but I'll start tracing from there. Have to study a bit on the 3 phase issue mentioned earlier.
  18. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    :D:D:D Marmot, you just gave the perfect illustration for my philosophy "Every man to his trade". My eyes literally crossed by the end of the first page of the first pdf. :D
    On the second pdf, this stood out
    "208Volt: 208 volts is a specific voltage (not derived from 240 volts) which may be supplied to a commercial facility
    in addition or as an alternative to 240 volts. It is provided by the utility as 208 ±5% volts and should not be used
    interchangeably with 220 thru 240 volts.
    220Volt: Outdated and typically no longer supplied by utilities.
    230Volt: Outdated and typically no longer supplied by utilities. However, 230 volts nominal may be referred to by
    equipment design standards as this is the Nominal Utilization Voltage as defined by ANSI C84.1.
    240Volt: 240 volts is a specific voltage which may be supplied to a commercial facility in addition or as an alternative to
    208 volts. It is provided by the utility as 240 ±5% volts and should not be used interchangeably with 208 volts."

    I believe I'm correct in thinking that a boat's electric is 240V, and this says 208V is a no-no for 240V. Yet this is two out of two with low voltage, this one stated as 208V. If I'm reading that right and this is as pevelent as it seems, a voltage booster should probably be on most boats. I wonder if that could cause me to get the low voltage. I believe the pdf said (+ or - 5%). If they're at 208V -5% that's 197.6V. Add in the draw from the other boats on the dock and it sounds like our 180V is accurate....and inadequate for our needs. Does that sound right to you?
  19. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    Without checking myself what is actually available at what point I won't offer an opinion.

    Do you have many 240 volt loads? What are they and what are the dataplate specs on those pieces of equipment?

    If you have modern 240V motors they might well be rated on the dataplate for 200 -240V or 208-230V.

    What voltage are you getting on the 120V feeds?

    There is a ton of advice and discussion but very little information about what you are actually dealing with.