Hurricane Ship Sinking

I think you hit the nail on the head.

Yeah, but small head
Easy to sh!t around and call fellow yachtforum members idiots and morons but If you meet these guys in person, there is usually nothing there
See you at the Boat Show Marmot, let's see how tough you are then?

3 guys from Ft. Lauderdale and this gets dealt with here instead of a bar or back alley or at least on PM???? I assume we're probably mere minutes before this thread is closed. I think you all know that I'm no shrinking violet, but this is about the worst I've read in 7 years aboard YF. Not saying anybody's wrong in their assessments, but this is YF not Craigslist.

Aye Ed.
The Idiot and Moron stuff did not go PM initially.
Guess the responses belong here on the front page where the stuff started.
Not sure I was the target of the Moron or Idiot comments, but don't think any of that belongs on a Gentlemans forum like this one, hence my objections.
Agree with the "back alley arguments" but I doubt Marmot or any other Key Board Warrior would show up

So if you were to meet and slug it out how do you imagine this will have any effect on the false and or inaccurate information posted some form of legitimacy?

I must say this is a whole new suggestion on YF - Take it behind the bike sheds for keyboard warriors is it?

Aye K1W1:
Easy to call fellow posters morons and idiots behind a key board.
Not so easy face to face is it?
Let's see how brave they really are, in person..?

Just curious and willing to see if indeed the bravado is there behind the bike shed. )

I think you are missing my point.

Incorrect and false information was posted in this thread without any supporting links or such like to show it was correct when questioned as to its authenticity/accuracy by someone who might be harsh at times but is probably the only one on here with the steam qualifications and experience to be able to call this out without the need to reference google.

From what I read its was not you who got told you were wrong and I am mystified by why you feel the need to wade into that argument without offering any information pertinent to the thread and just offering another poster out at a boat show.

Here is an article on the actual loss. I am not familiar with the organisation that published it so can only take it at face value.

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/425396/el-faro-tragedy-caused-by-bad-regulation-jones-act

I am not familiar with this publisher either but the content of this article reflects the opinion of most of the commercial shipping world on this side of the pond and further east. Several articles and comments in the specific print media and online sources are having the same opinion: A large cargo vessel like El Faro would not have been on trade anymore outside the Jones Act area.

This statement should not be concidered as criticism from my side on the Jones Act at all. I personally believe, that some restriction and / or regulation in cabotage and shipbuilding, for any seagoing nation, would be helpfull for the economy of those countries. Our commercial ship building industry has been killed by the totally deregulated globalized market too. A European Yard can not even buy the steel for the final price of a Chinese build cargo vessel. And freight rates especially for box carriers are down to NIL because of this deregulated world.

But the inflexibility and the 1920 point of view of the Jones Act may have caused or at least contributed to the situation discribed above. May be not only some US flagged cargo ships neet to be modernized, some legislation may be too (on both sides of the pond of course ).

My family has lost a 800 ft cargo vessel in the seventies on the mid Atlantic caused by a rogue wave with only one survivor. No distress call, no evidence, a modern ship only 6 years old. The ship went down in minutes. Mother nature can sometimes be really merciless.

This forum is dedicated to helping yacht owners, buyers and enthusiasts. It was not developed as a podium to demean and demoralize other people. If there are inaccuracies posted, then someone with a more human temperament can step in to correct.

About a year ago I suspended Marmot for a month. It was the first time I EVER suspended anyone. I hope everyone understands WHY now! This thread has been moved to the Yacht Club so the majority of our viewers don't have to witness conduct unbecoming of gentlemen.

Two statements in that article stand out:

In an era where we replace our phones every two years and trade in our car leases in not much longer than that, why is it that these people were stranded in the middle of a maelstrom aboard what El Faro seaman Chris Cash called a “rust bucket”?

Even under normal circumstances, her old engine and turbine were difficult to maintain, but in a Category 4 hurricane, the task probably became impossible. ​

The first implies that changing stuff well before end-of-life is a good thing. (Perhaps a standard belief for an organization that wants to "unleash.... [a] frontier economy.") And it also implies a cargo ship (and the $$$ to replace it) is as trivial as a cell phone.

The second asks the reader to believe an unwarranted statement. Or at best, it perhaps implies that "more work" equals "unreliable." Is it "difficult" to maintain a steam plant under normal circumstances? Yes, I know it's likely more work than turning the key on a big diesel, and yes I understand it requires additional crew and more eyes-on monitoring... but does that make it "difficult?"

-Chris

The American merchant fleet has some of the oldest ships still operating, that is a fact. Several reasons exist for this, they were built extremely well to very high standards. They are operated and maintained by very skilled mariners who take pride in keeping those ships alive and functioning well. They are very very good at it.

Of course many foreign ships are newer, they are built cheaper and lighter, they are fully automated so there are fewer crew to maintain them and they simply don't last very long. Some foreign governments provide far more support to the shipping and shipbuilding industry than America does, all reasons why ships can be replaced like cars and are built with the same design philosophy as cars, they are not expected to last long because it is not as good for the economy as keeping the yards and suppliers busy.

A steamship is, in many ways, more complex than a motorboat but the skills of those who operate and maintain them are also greater than the typical motor operator. But, steam plants require far less day to day maintenance than any motorboat and I would go so far as to say they are more dependable. There is a saying in the industry that steamboats are for old men, the reason for that is that it is a more contemplative job, requiring thought and skill rather than brawn and endurance. I have worked harder, sweated more, and got much dirtier on a motorboat than on any steam boat. Most have been automated to the point that most of the engine crew are dayworkers, just like on a motorboat and at night, only one engineer is present in the engine room. The engine is wheelhouse controlled so there is no need for anyone to manually control the throttle or manage the burners.

Back in post #16 I welcomed Marmot back, not because I like him nor that I like his style in relating to people, but because he has a vast pool of knowledge for us to benefit from. Same for several others here. During that suspension we lost access to that pool of knowledge.

Contributors here may be CEO's or professors or whatever who don't have to "suffer fools" well in their world, but this is not their company, classroom or whatever. Here we MUST "suffer fools", because even the most ignorant has something to offer that we can learn from. Most of us here are fairly intelligent, or at least are capable of stringing together a sentence. We should be able to correct incorrect information without resorting to insults or threats. If not, then maybe we're not as intelligent as we thought. As I read the posts coming in last night and over the past couple of days all I could think of was what a new member visiting for the first time must think. How many may have read this thread and fled YF, and how much insight we may have lost on future topics or how many boaters we may have lost the opportunity to help because of that.

Keep in mind that any of us may be absolutely brilliant, but if the only one willing to listen to us is ourselves we have no more to offer than the most ignorant among us.

I have communicated my thoughts on some of the posts in this thread in private. I shall keep them there.

Marmot:
Glad you had class enough not to comment on my rant last night.
Got a couple of PMs saying I stepped over the line threating with bodily harm.
No so, just curious if you would use the same language face to face as you do on the Internet?
Have heard you are a nice guy in person, but abrasive behind the keyboard.
Would love to meet you at the boat show and share a beer and I am fairly confident you will not call me or any other fellow boater a moron or an idiot, but if you do, we have to discuss, after all that is rude, insulting and out of line regardless of your superior knowledge and qualifications.
That being said, I apologize for my booze induced postings last night.

Good for you Norseman. It takes a real man to admit when they're wrong and apologize. Let's all take a lesson here: When the booze comes out put the keyboard (and other deadly weapons) away.

(Back in the old days all we had to worry about was that drunk midnight call to the old girlfriend. Different world today.)

Somewhat, they do. They make kits for your phones.

While Marmot aka Richard Boggs may be considered an expert in real life. His posts are very rude, abrasive, and classless with no filter on a worldwide internet forum a lot of times. He hasn't contributed anything of expert knowledge earlier to this posting and also in many others just bashing saying such an such is a complete moron, with no correct factual information to add to it. I feel that he does add good knowledge and insight on this forum, but his bashing posts outnumber knowledgable ones. A true expert will correct a mis-guided post in a calm manner without resorting to name calling and abusive language. That being said, what's done is done, let's move on.

That being said, everything I posted is found on numerous other internet sites.

The course of the hurricane did EXACTLY the course it was projected to do as much as 5 days earlier. It did intensify a bit more but was still projected to turn into a hurricane. Before the El Faro was passing hole in the wall it had already became a Cat 1 hurricane and building quickly and EVERY expert has said that it should have gone West at hole in the wall and avoided it. A phone call from one of the crew at 8pm (ish) the night before told her mother they would be passing directly through a hurricane.

The 5 Poles working on the ship's boiler. Here are links,
"The five Poles on board were not members of the crew but part of a so-called 'riding gang' to conduct repairs on the ship while it was at sea, executives from the ship's owner, Tote Inc, told Reuters on Monday.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...lem-left-cargo-ship-adrift.html#ixzz3oTh8yx00
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

The five Polish mariners onboard also raised safety questions among shipping experts because they were what’s called in maritime lingo a “riding gang,” tasked with conducting routine repairs of the vessel while at sea.

Those workers are often brought onboard because they allow companies to save money by not taking the ship out of service. Some of those repairs can include working on essential backup systems in emergencies or systems that could potentially jeopardize the ship’s integrity or buoyancy, said Doherty, the retired Navy captain.

“Riding gangs . . . the minute I hear that, the hairs on the back of my neck stand up,” Doherty said. “It’s a cheap way of doing what should be done at shore. ... You have to be careful that the nature of the work doesn’t impact the sea-worthiness of the ship.”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/busin...ab59ae-6b79-11e5-aa5b-f78a98956699_story.html

Also onboard, five Polish nationals, apparently to conduct repairs on a boiler while the ship was underway (some reports say their job was “calibrating” the engine).
http://www.flatheadmemo.com/archives_2015/october_2015/2015-10-05_el_faro.html
(All of the other info in this report on the ship appears dead nuts accurate, it's history, etc. etc.)

The company was getting ready to launch a brand new ship powered with liquid natural gas, which was expected to make the Jacksonville-San Juan run. El Faro was being retrofitted and was going to be sent to Alaska. A company spokesman said that five Polish workers were on board to do the retrofitting.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/06/us/el-faro-missing-ship-hurricane-joaquin.html?_r=0

When the El Faro left Jacksonville on Sept. 29, the five Polish workers came along with 28 U.S. crew members to do some prepatory work in the engine room, according to Greene. He gave no details on the nature of their work.
http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/...-Sinking-of-Cargo-Ship-El-Faro-330939212.html

http://cf.********.com/forum/images/metro/bw/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by WPM http://cf.********.com/forum/images/metro/bw/buttons/viewpost-right.png
I know of companies that have employed Polish nationals to conduct repairs to a vessel while she was underway. I seem to recall these workers being tasked with welding and fitting jobs.

I am curious as to what these men were doing on board and if it might have contributed to this situation?
I do believe they were on the ship to work on the boiler . When I left Monday night . I parked my roro truck in front of the water tight door to the engine room . One of the Polish men asked me to move my truck because he had to get pipes in the engine room .
http://www.********.com/forum/maritime-news/17656-sea-star-el-faro-8.html

There were more referring to the Polish workers doing boiler repairs, but I cannot find them now.