Hull Paint: Alexseal or Awlgrip

Hey Guys, just a note.
Yes, Alexseal is better than Awlgrip at the moment. But what I've noticed myself (and I've been studying this for the last 3 years in trying to make my Owners of bigger yachts the best decision) is that Alexseal does not have the distortions of the Awlgrip system, but does have some Orange Peel issues.
It just has a busy look to it!!
After reviewing about 18 larger yachts with Alexseal and DuPont earlier this year, I had to say that the overall finish of boats up to 2 1/2 years old, went to DuPont.
For me Awlgrip is out of the question.
As I've said earlier, International Perfection Pro, has a good long lasting gloss, it just seems to be missing a little deepness. This can be compensated by using the new Perfection Gloss on top, but this requires an extra coat.
The DuPont that I've noticed at 2 years still had a gloss of over 90 GU, on surfaces which were not polished.
The polishing of the system is, in my opinion, one of the advantages.
It's Acryl based, Non-Linear system, which means that it's fully polishable, if repairs are necessary.
The coating does have a small structure, but this is within any limits I use on surveying big yachts (over 70 meters!), and the gloss holds.
Not sure what more one could want.
As a note, the International is also Non-Linear, so it is to an extent polishable, but not acrylic, so polishing has to be done very carefully to not create high heat.

Hope to have helped.

Hello everyone,

When you commission a new-build superyacht (say, a Feadship), and you specify that the exterior hull / superstructure paint-works are to be Awlgrip, and yet something goes wrong - the finish is less than satisfactory...De Vries or Van Lent will honour their commitments to the customer (even though the problem may be with the paint manufacturer or applicator). I know of 1 65m. De Vries motoryacht which will be undergoing a complete repainting of their dark-blue hull in Barcelono this autumn - costs upto €650,000 covered by their standard warranty.

What real guarantees do all the other shipyards / paint manufacturers mentioned above offer...?!

Whilst it's understandable that Feadship would offer some form of "comprehensive guarantee" on the paintworks of their newbuilds, the paint manufacturers themselves will rarely guarantee anything substantial, especially when "the applicator of the paint is unknown" or "has yet to establish a solid reputation in partnership with the marque"...? It may also be worthwhile considering JOTUN's "MEGAYACHT" range of paints for hulls / superstructures in addition to their already important presence as a major supplier of anti-fouling paints for many mega-yachts. Provided that the paintworks are conducted according to a JOTUN specification and under supervision of a local JOTUN representative, JOTUN will also establish worthwhile guarantees...

For sure, there are always additional costs involved, if you want the reassurance. But the next time you're responsable for specifying the brand etc. of the paintworks of a newbuild from the comfort of your armchair, what would you choose...?!

And at the end of the day, you have to deal with the crew aboard who inevitably have to make touch-ups and repairs to the paint finish. If your yacht was finished in Alexseal paints, whilst they have a French agent, this agent apparently holds no stock? All orders are shipped from Germany. Too bad if you had an emergency repair to make just the day before the owners are due to arrive...?!

As for cost, well, by the time you add all the extra charges for delivery of these "lesser-known" yacht paints from N. America to say, Germany, then onto their non-stocking European agents for eventual delivery to a ship-chandler in France...let's just say that the costs of ordering a few litres of Alexseal coatings etc. for delivery in S. France become very expensive indeed, easily twice what the equivalent Awlgrip product costs locally.

And what happens when the yacht is in a far-flung corner of the globe - is the yacht owner willing to pay the extra "dangerous-goods" charges for shipping this paint halfway across the globe when brands such as International or Awlgrip are locally available...?!

By the way, if by any chance, you're crew on a major Chinese newbuild with Alexseal coatings...?! Well, what guarantee does the shipyard offer, unless of course, you have 1st hand knowledge of the {Chinese) paint applicator that actually applied all the coatings (if Europe is anything to go by, the applicators start a new company for every newbuild - that way, they can just "walk away" from any very major problems)...?!

So let's actually hear from the superyacht crews who maintain Alexseal, Awlgrip or other hull and superstructure topcoats...?!

Alexseal did initially have some issues with "orange peel" that could be reduced if you thinned it enough but you lost coverage and had to apply extra coats to get even color. The first boat we sprayed with Alexseal had more peel than we liked and their rep, who was onsite during all the prep and shooting (he even mixed it for us!) went so far as to have the chemists flown over from Germany to do more testing. We sprayed several different formulations, different ways and settled on a mix that worked well in our hot weather. That special mix was added to their product line as "Superflow", and only used by builders that wanted that mirror finish (some guys like the hide that peel gives ).

All of their topcoats have now been switched to "Superflow" with even more pigment which saves coats so even in triple digit temperatures you can get a mirror finish if you want it.

Lest I sound like a commercial, I have to say that in the last month I have painted boats with Imron 5.0, standard Awl-Grip, Awl-Grip 2000, Devoe and Interlux. We use whatever the owner requests. I have always said you should go with the product that has the best service after the sale and, in our area, Alexseal wins that hands down.

But what if you were required to paint a large yacht, which decided to have a full hull and/or superstructure repaint job in the USA (which fitted into their "global" cruising schedule and what they were prepared to pay)...?!

1) If you use whatever the owner / captain / manager requests, well, that's one less worry for you...?!

2) "I have always said you should go with the product that has the best service after the sale and, in our area, Alexseal wins that hands down." And that sounds OK, but you could you really repeat the same if your client was a yacht which would be spending the next summer in the Mediterranean, the following winter in the Maldives and then be going down to Australia / NZ afterwards? Or even if the client was spending the winter in the Caribbean, followed by a summer in the Med., returning home to her (French) home-port for the next winter...?!

Fine, you recommend "1 brand over another" with the worthwhile, if sad pre-condition: "...go with the product that has the best service after the sale...". Would you care to enlighten us all as to the extent of this "after-sales service" available from say Alexseal, from the view-point of most large yachts and their decision-makers, who require a truly "International after-sales service", in comparison with other paint suppliers such as International, Awlgrip, Jotun etc. all of whom have invested in substantial networks of distributors and stocks so that these are available rapidly in most locations? Yeah, I remember Sterling paints. A one-time (serious and dedicated supplier) of marine paints to professionals, who invested the capital and knowledge in order to develop their product in direct competition with Awlgrip, ensured that stocks of their products were readily available in France / italy etc. But it's been at least 10 years since I was asked to supply any Sterling paints...?!

The "smaller fish" cannot hope to win any fight against the big established marine paint manufacturers...! Their product may be superior, but at the end of the day, they don't have the distribution network or the capital to invest in sufficient worldwide stocks to achieve their aims. The established brands will continue to dominate the market because:

1) They already produce the so-called "superyacht" paint products, which are mere adaptations of the products they already sell to the commercial ship-building sector (their main market), and sold at easily 4 or 5 times the price levels they're used to achieving in that sector (albeit with much less quantities involved for each newbuild. Just think about it, the amount of paints (lots of it JOTUN) in terms of weight which went into the construction of the QMII would easily be equivalent to the GRT of any recent 50m+ superyacht...). That should give you an impression of "the perspective" behind the major paint manufacturers' involvement in pursuing the "tiny in comparison" market for superyacht paints.

2) A paint-job that "goes wrong". For whatever reason, litigation follows. Who's (ultimately) responsible though? If the shipyard is big and solid enough, presumably they would be, if only as a matter of keeping thier good name (and having taken out an adequate insurance policy). Or would you as captain / manager be seeking damages against a paint-application company composed of (fill-in-the-blanks) and extremely limited responsibility, perhaps even established for this particular contract...?

An alternative is to contract one of the "big" names. Get them to select and approve the paint applicator / shipyard, they supervise the application and you insist on their binding guarantee (usually valid for 2-3 years) against all defects. The "big" players can and are willing to do this because their products (if not quite "the best that the market offers", are inherently otherwise proven to do their job), and at the margins they use for selling quasi-standard "commercial ship" paint products to the superyacht market, are well-positionned to accommodate any unexpected surprises.

There's always the hope that smaller paint manufacturers may be able to establish some form of "niche market", though I wouldn't bet on that.

It would do wonders if (IF) we could see two boat side by side with the same color and what not. Im just sayn... Otherwise this has been a heck of a good post and as a Hatteras dealer I have found it very useful! Thanks guys.

As a Hatteras dealer, maybe you could shed some light as to why Hatteras switched paints to Alexseal? Was it price? Was it finish or formulation?

All valid points and all worthy of serious consideration. In my experience, and I will be the first to say it is limited to the eastern US seaboard, Awl-Grip USED to be the best in service, but now Alexseal has grabbed that torch and run with it. Imron used to have a good dealer network but they basically gave up on the marine market years ago. I had to order the last paint from a distributor 200 miles away, have it shipped to a parts house 75 miles away and send a runner to get it.

Alexseal's local rep, who used to be with Awl-Grip (and did them GREAT service by supporting their product line), is the main reason IMHO the majority of the builders in our area switched to them. For advice on mixing ratios in our summer heat, prep, color selection, or help mixing paint (he even pitched in sanding on occasion!), you couldn't ask for better support. One phone call and he is here.

I can only speak from US experience in the firsthand but I did have a paint issue on a boat a couple of years ago. The boat was 800 miles away and Alexseal sent their local rep to the boat, evaluated and determined it to be a paint issue, contracted the services of a local finish expert and completely dealt with the problem to the owners satisfaction.

Do they have that kind of support worldwide? I don't know for sure but I suspect they are trying very hard to establish that. They are part of the Mankiewicz group who, by all accounts, is a pretty big company dealing with paint in several different fields. They were founded by the "father" of Awl-Grip, and he is no stranger to the market we all live in. Surely economic times have slowed their expansion plans but, knowing the principals personally, I trust in them to do whatever is needed to keep their customers happy and I know they are behind me on each and every paint project we do.

Would I recommend them for a superyacht that has extensive travel plans, absolutely! From press releases, they seem to be covering a lot of really big ones coming out of the big builders in the EU. Not that it would make me want to use them for that reason alone, but it sure helps!

While I would be on the first plane to wherever the boat was that had a problem, I know they would be joining me on that flight and would overnight ship anything to me that was needed to make it right. Is that good service after the sale, I believe so!

Nice, but merely "hypothetical" sentiments. I don't personally know of any superyachts who would be very happy to pay the important costs of flights / hotel accommodations of any (paint applicator), but especially if the applicator is also "inviting the paint manufacturer" along for the "joy ride".

The "problem" aboard may be simply a small repair required because of a "knock" taken during the last berthing. Does that warrant the "flying-out" of specialists from the other side of the globe...?!

More importantly, you cannot simply "overnight", deliver 2 component paints, whether Awlgrip, International, Jotun or from anyone else using standard International courrier services. These products are classified as hazardous goods, requiring special packaging and declarations before shipping. And if you had ever attempted to organise such a shipment (evidently not...), you would know what I'm waffling-on about here...?!

In my own limited experience, these are some of the things superyachts will pay almost "any price to fix" if a real fix is available within 24/48H whilst the owners are aboard:

1) Fixing problems related to the on-board entertainment systems / SATcoms / SAT TV etc. - they will accommodate the technician/s involved in the closest available 5 star hotel to the anchorage.

2) Supply of spares and or repairs for the tenders aboard (especially the one the owners use...).

3) Supply of spares for the vacuum toilet system aboard (in my experience), provided you have the parts available, especially if the problem is with 1 of the pumps, the yacht always sends someone, either via normal flights, or uses the owner's jet, to collect and deliver the required parts in the hope of re-establishing normal service within 24H.

IMHO, no major superyacht would consider the expenses detailed above to simply make a small repair to the paint-works aboard, whatever brand of paint. So perhaps, some people here should stop fantasizing...?!

So far as I'm aware, noone here in the south of France stocks any Alexseal paints available "for immediate delivery" to yachts here in Antibes, a major Mediterranean "resource centre" for superyachts of all sizes. Together with some of the Dutch yacht-builders, who use coatings available only through their local paint distributors (eg. Sikkens) when it comes to all the interior coatings on major yachts, it's never very straight-forward "how or when" the local ship-chandlers to whom the yacht has requested supply of the paint request in France or Greece is expected to reply.

Presumably, they don't give a ****e anymore. They sold all the oriinal paint involved with the newbuild. They're not interested in supplying 5 or 10L of the same products as part of any after-sales service...(a yacht which cost anywhere between €30 and 85 millions - they never say it explicitly, but what they're trying to say is that; "once the ship leaves the shipyard, go get ****ed afterwards." I'm not saying that any of the Dutch builders regularly abuse their positions. Simply that when it comes to ordering spare parts (especially "under warranty"), I can only assume that the delivery delays announced by the shipyard/s for "urgent spares - and required within 3-4 working days)" are more often than not, subjected to completely unrealistic or unacceptable delays.

You know what I hate above all...?! It's all the yacht-builders, who've built these large yachts. Who cannot or will not adequately assure the after-sales service to the client. When I'm confronted with a Dutch or German-built superyacht, and they ask me for spare parts (mostly with incomplete details, relying on the software programs installed at the shipyard during the new-build). They remain in port for a few days only, expecting us to be able to supply all their essential requirements in the meantime.

Well, speaking solely for myself, I'm completely "fed-up" that the builders of most of the recently-launched superyachts (they know who they are), rely essentially on local ship-chandlers and suppliers, to supply the "after-sales services" that these builders of superyachts should have established themselves. (Or, do you really believe that "it's normal" that you can build a 60-85m superyacht, newbuild contracts worth €50-100 millions each, yet spend zero € on essential after-sales services?°

The real truth, whether or not your shipyard was in Holland, Greece, France or Turkey. Consult the original contracts. It would be nice to believe that anyone building in a Dutch shipyard would be better treated. But there is no evidence of that. And there is no evidence that Dutch-shipyards (compared to other European or Turkish-based yards) offer any additional services which establish their superiority compared to mostly cheaper yacht construction yards in Europe.

WOW, I didn't realise you had an axe to grind or I wouldn't have bothered to try and share what I thought was helpful information.

Number one, when I mentioned flying to the boat to deal with a paint WARRANTY problem, why should that incur an expense to the owner? Sure, I have seen contracts that state all warranty work is to be performed at the builders yard, but to keep customers happy sometimes you have to bite the bullet and go the extra mile. It certainly isn't a "joy ride"! While trips to exotic locales might be pleasurable when the job is done, it's fixing the boat that comes first!

I wasn't referring to dock dings or scratches either! Of course that doesn't warrant jetting around unless the owner requested it. I'm anxiously awaiting a call for something that simple. It's usually done by a member of the crew, and most crews I know have at least someone who is capable and experienced enough to handle that.

Your inference that I do not know what I'm talking about borders on insulting. Of course paint is hazardous material and it IS difficult and horrendously expensive to ship overnight but not impossible. I'm sitting here at my desk looking at a box with four gallons of custom colour topcoat that were overnighted from Germany, and it's not the first shipment they have done that with, in fact it's one of three in the last year so it can be done. They have done it for all the custom colours I have ordered at their expense and that's for paint ordered in advance.

I'm truly sorry you have had bad experiences in dealing with builders and you obviously and understandably a touch bitter about it. Hopefully you will run across some that do try and provide the service you desire. I'm sure they are out there and I'm also sure many are on here. This thread started out discussing the pros and cons of different paint systems, can we please try and stay on topic?

Bill106, you better believe that I've got (multiple axes) to grind...?! I'm almost 50 years old, extremely disappointed by many of the companies I do business with, disappointed by my employers, disappointed by some of my customers and disappointed by the government to whom I pay my taxes etc. etc. I'm also extremely disappointed that after all of "Humpty Dumpty's best efforts, all the King's men and the $ billions spent", there are still fewer wild tigers remaining in the wild in India compared to 20 years ago. That some so-called "1st world countries" continue to engage in "wars", if only to appease and recompense those who helped them obtain office - "the military-industrial complex". I'm disappointed that the Filipino government (under pressure from the Catholic authorities) do not offer basic family-planning services - birth-control pills, condoms or other contraceptive devices. That they're apparently content to have Filipino families with 4-10 children, whose parents will never ever be able to cope with providing adequate education / health care or even just food. And who do the most needy turn to in that 80% Catholic country...?! Yeah, the same church that imprisons them in their misery...give me the most corrupt Pakistani or Iraqi government official used to taking bribes to make ends meet any day!

Bill106, just don't take my comments too personally OK?!

My own viewpoint of the superyacht industry is that the average superyacht customer spends many 10s of millions $/£/€ on their toys (if that is not too seupercillious). But what's certain, is that you would probably receive more attention and a better after-sales service if you'd bought a USD 50,000 Ford motorcar, certainly if you'd spent close to 10 times that for a Rolls-Royce.

A major part of the blame can be laid at the feet of those yacht-brokers (who once having gained the absolute confidence of their frail or not so frail clients) nevertheless persuaded them to choose 1 builder over another. Who also "manage yachts" these days (heaven help us...?!) So now, you have the yacht-broker, having sold you the yacht, "supervised" the construction, also "managing" the yacht at (great expense). How convenient is all of that? An expense that should normally be put right at the cost of the builder - blame it on poor maintenance, at the limit, fire the Chief Engineer. Another delicate techinical problem - instigate a 3 months-on / 3 months-off rotation for the chief engineer/s.

Thanks for allowing me to share all that.

And "getting back on thread" as Bill106 correctly wished, please consult the attached .pdf document. It concerns serious testing undertaken by JOTUN Paints of an "after-market paint protection product" applied to their MEGAYACHT top-coatings...

In other reports concerning the Permanon product which I cannot make available, the Jotun representative went so far as to acknowledge that applying this product as recommended by the manufacturer, would in fact possibly "double" the average 3-4 year acceptable life of their MEGAGLOSS topcoats. I personally know of several major superyachts who use the PERMANON range of products regularly. These products are not cheap, they're at least 10 times the price of the usual polishes from 3M, Starbrite, Dulon etc.

I can believe the claims, having witnessed the efficiency of this "after-market" product on the yachts where they've applied the product (often all over - including the S/S brightwork, windows, varnished surfaces etc. The JOTUN specialist in the report above basically says that this product could basically "double the life" of their topcoats...? Very brave. Considering that earlier on in this thread, someone posted that you could expect 10-12 years reasonable life out of a correctly-applied AWLGRIP topcoat. There's been very little mention of the instruments used by industry professionals to measure, for example, the quality of existing top-coat finishes. Based on gloss retention or reflectivity...?! Why so?! Could it be that some people just don't want the "general public" knowing that that there are industry-wide accepted practices when it comes to measuring the quality of a top-coat finish on a yacht?!

PS. We never hear from the Pope or the Vatican when it comes to yachts and their finishes. Therefore, presumably, anything goes then...?! Compared to say the Phillipines, where the Pope and Catholicism have a strangle-hold on 80% of the population and the way they lead their lives. (There are so many superyachts that employ Filipinos, which is why I consider it a valid issue here on this forum...). From what I understand, all the (corrupt Filipino politicians) who also invariably support "their backers", rely on the backing of the Catholic church mainly). Once voted in, these politicians apply what some would consider completely irresponsable birth-control and family-planning policies in accordance with their church-backers. That doesn't stop their church-backers from generally complaining that the Filipino government is corrupt - that it's not basic family planning that's at fault, rather it's government corruption (in the form of the deviation of the $ billions that should be spent on supporting families with 6-12 children, instead going into the pockets of the politicians...?!

Yeah, that's just what I thought. The Catholic church over there don't just want a very big cake, they also want to eat it all, shared out as only they know how. But never have to take any responsibility for their own actions (or lack of mainly, when it comes to succour and well-being of their subjects).

And strangely enough, that's the impression I have of most superyacht builders and brokers today. They sell a product worth €20-100 millions plus. There is no after-sales service, there is only litigation or ignorance (when the original shipyard quotes 2-3 months delay on a spare part- whether or not under-warranty, compared to 7-10 working days delivery for the same part from an independent supplier) for example. You would receive a better after-sales service having purchased a Cadillac or other motorcar for $75,000.

You think I'm joking?! So prove me wrong. Do you really believe that the yacht broker/s involved in the sale / purchase really worry much about the "small details" once the $ millions in commissions have changed hands? After all, many of them have dedicated "after-sales" departments, usually part of their "management division" where the owners pay very handsome sums for these services and finally receive all the real bills...?!

No, I don't like how many yacht brokers and managing agents "manage" their affairs today. Or perhaps they're merely adapting their normal behaviour, confronted with all their newly-rich ex. Russian mafia clients or whatever. Whilst I have a tendency to twirl the hairs on my testicules on a hot afternoon, "others" and their legal advisors are contemplating how best to avoid or circumvent existing rules in order to best satisfy (if that is the right term) their International clientele. For whom they are willing to do almost anything. Firing a chief engineer because he was trying to bring to the attention of "the managers" some serious problems is merely one of the hazards of working aboard yachts instead of a commercial ship. Mostly, commercial shipping companies today are exposed to extremely serious repercussions in case of infringements. The same cannot be said of your average yacht management company.

Of course I'm on subject...?! We're discussing large yacht paint finishes. Or makeup as it were?!

Hi,

That is a great idea, on the bigger boats you will find it is across the whole dept not just the C/E's.

BTW - What does this have to do with AwlGrip and or Alexseal?

Thanks - K1W1, Tombat, Loren, et at!

My client had signed a contract with the yard for painting his 55' steel trawler with AwlGrip. After referring my client to this YF thread and receiving a few PMs, the yard has now agreed to use Alexseal.

The depth of knowledge and willingness to share makes YF such an incredible resource.

Thanks once again to all!

Judy

Your boat look really good now TK. All white is sometime to much.

Interestingly enough I had a new Hatteras docked next to me a few weeks ago here in PR. The captain told me they were on the way back to Hatteras for a total repaint under warranty.

I asked him what brand of paint, his answer was Alexseal. Don't know if the repaint was due to application issues, or product issues.