HIN re-numbered yacht. Is it legal?

I've personally seen 2 yachts where the manufacturer changed the HIN to update the year. One was bought unfinished and the owner had an interior decorator come in and change the interior (the HIN was on plastic tags riveted to the hull), delaying the completion of the yacht and it got stuck at the factory due to winter, they changed the HIN to 1 year newer, except the boat had 3 tags and they forgot one of them which had it a year older.

I also saw this on another one in production where they delayed putting a HIN on the boat for a month, also so it would be a year newer.......I think it is legal, unless the builder already registered/assigned the first HIN on the boat with the USCG, then it would be altering a HIN number because the boat would already have been branded with the old one legally.

The lines in question were probably installed before the deck/house/cap were installed and before the boat was finished. It's easiest to lay the engines into the boat and do the entire engine room before you build the cap/salon etc over it.

As for the lines being dated 07, yes they were but it is somebodies handwriting which could be in-accurate. They also could have made a batch of those lines all at the same time and just got around to using them for this boat later. If they were hoses with the dates impregnated on them it might be a different story........But whether or not it's legal.....I dunno....it's all under warranty or should be.

The story does not sound kosher.

Is this hull #1 of a new model by chance? How many hours were on the boat when your buddy bought it?

Searay has that 70' Sportyacht sitting somewhere half completed that they mothballed a few years ago.......technically they could finish it now, brand it a 2011, and be legal I believe........

"But whether or not it's legal.....I dunno...."

"technically they could finish it now, brand it a 2011, and be legal I believe........"

Either do I. But some one here must. And at this point that is the person we need to hear from next.

hold on gents ...

doesn't it boil down to FULL DISCLOSURE ???

the buyer pays $4mm for a 2011 boat & gets a mix-and-match of the last few years ...

sorry guys, but in my books, that is fraud.

Try this link

http://newboatbuilders.com/pages/hin.html

Hi,

Great Link to that site, now I know what I need to say when changing a HIN

One telling thing is what the vessels documentation says about year built. When a builder submits the vessel for a documentation number assignment they fill in the hull ID# themselves on the form, it is not assigned by the USCG. The hull in question was most likely built and a hull # inserted into the hull mold at that time. If there was a long delay before actual sale, they may have changed it before submitting for a doc #. Custom builders usually don't submit for doc # until ready to launch unless the buidlers risk insurance carrier requires it but they usually do not.

There are several "new" boats floating not far from me now that were actually launched several years ago. They are being offered for sale "as new" and the manufacturer is offering full warranties and covering items themselves like appliances and HVAC units that have gone beyond their normal warranty period. The engines are being covered by their manufacturers as well. Full disclosure that the vessel has sat for some time should of course have been made before the sale but a "new" boat that may have been in the water for a couple of years isn't that uncommon of late.

I agree five years is a long time, you are already into a lot more maintanance issues that normally wouldn't start for the first couple of years. A lot of production builders had boats on the line that were stalled for various reasons and may well have had components installed for years before splashing. I also do know of several that have sat in the water for more than three years while waiting to find an owner. Fortunately in these cases, the manufacturer is covering the boat bumper to bumper as new so owners shouldn't have additional expenses.

I am not sure how the USCG would know or really care if a hull ID# was changed during the manufacturing process by the builder if it happened before the documentation was submitted for a doc#. There are guidelines for number format regarding build dates and model numbers but unless they were changed after the doc# was assigned, they would have no way of knowing.

Hi,

Surely it is a simple matter for you or anyone who knows the HIN to check it's validity.

From what I understand the HIN doesn't become official till the thing is recorded by the CG, maybe this boat was given one and then plans changed and it was never officially recorded then it was changed, there might have also been a mistake in the number such as a couple of numbers reversed, I know it isn't easy to reverse 11 but it might be somewhere else in the numbering.

No amount of keyboard fondling on here will answer the question until someone can verify the validity or non validity of the HIN in question.

It seems to me that wheter it is legal or not to change HIN which it looks like to me (not a lawyer) to be allowed before it leaves the factory. Notwithstanding that however, is the fact that the new owner of the boat now owns 5 year old machinery and hoses (assuming it was done at the same time). There has to be some difference in value for a 5 year old diesel engine than a brand new one that has fresh seals and gaskets and where the metal has been in contact with oil rather than dripping off. Warranty be ****ed, the problems end up with the new owner. Same could be said for othe systems if they were already installed like A/C, Watermakers.

I think that you can't send a product out the door, in good faith, that is not what the expectation of the buyer is without disclosing it and reducing the price.
If the purchaser then decides to go ahead with the deal, with all cards on the table, at some agreed to price, fine. But, this to me is deceptive. The boat evidently was not completed in a timely manner and the machinery has to me decreased in value by a lot.

What model engines are in these?

Evidently it's very important to check build dates on each componant rather than just model year. Never really considered that. That new boat could easily have soon to be outdated guts and old technology. I'd certainly hate to pay for a new boat and find 5 year old hoses, etc.

At this point I think the buyer needs to have an attorney send the builder a letter demanding a written explanation of the history of the vessel and the actual age and warranty status of the equipment. This should be followed up by a survey to verify the claims. The cost of doing this in relation to the cost of the vessel is miniscule. Where did the vessel sit for 5 years? It could have been anywhere from climate controlled storage to outside in the water. UV rays, salt water exposure? How much of it sat around for that long?

If I were looking at a boat and the engines were 5 years older than the boat I would assume they were remanufactured or rebuilt engines that were used to keep the cost down. You could argue with me all you want about how you bought a completely new boat but I'd consider it a lot older than the "sold date".

It gets worse. A client of mine bought an '08 leftover in 2010. When the Raymarine unit needed work we were first told that it was out of warranty (a week after buying the NEW boat). Of course we got it straightened out, but had that componant been 5 years old in '08, resolving that warranty issue would have been very complicated as I'm sure they would have had to offer a reconditioned unit or demanded more money for a current model.

This comes from the aircraft industry but it might be of interest if you are seriously worried about the hoses.

"There is come concern within the industry about the misuse of shelf-life and service life. Storage conditions and the environment in which the product is used is more important in determining the useful life than calendar time. Often audits and documentation practices only include shelf life and disregard storage conditions.

In many instances, maintenance manuals include a service life requirement for hoses but have no service inspection or condition replacement criteria. Such policies are wasteful in that perfectly good products are scraped; and such policies are dangerous as products that have been degraded because of harsh storage conditions or operating environment are kept in service.

Service life is installation dependent. For example, we see rubber hose that has been on the aircraft for over 20 years, yet the same rubber hose exposed to high heat next to an exhaust stack may have a service life of several weeks (or until bent). It is our experience that a rubber hose carrying 100 low lead avgas ages faster than the same hose carrying engine oil. What is the service life of a hose? As one aerospace hose manufacturer states: "Only the user can establish this period."



Shelf Life

Reference AS 1933 revision A. (replaces MIL-STD-1523) for rubber age limitation. Generally, 32 quarters (8 years) --at acceptance by ultimate user/customer.

AS 1933 may not mean that a hose that is beyond 32 quarters cannot be installed. For example, the customer could purchase (accept) the hose before 32 quarters and then subject the hose to shelf storage until such time as the customer is ready to install the hose. Shelf storage is measured from acceptance. The Navy, in NAVAIR 01-1A-20 could put the hose into storage for an additional 5 years (MIL-HDBK-695). Do not confuse Shelf Life with Shelf Storage.

Service Life

Service life depends upon service conditions. The hose manufacture is often unaware of service conditions, so the best they can do is offer general guidelines. The airframe/engine manufacturer or maintenance entity is in the best position to establish Service Life as they are the most knowledgeable as to the service conditions.

To quote from Eaton (Aeroquip):

The actual service life of a given hose assembly, in a given application, is dependent on many variable factors. These variable factors may include, but are not limited to, operating pressure, pressure surges, flexing, operating temperatures (both fluid and ambient), installed bend radius, cleaning solutions, ozone and assembly routing. Due to the variety of operating conditions and applications, the user, through their own analysis, testing and/or review of maintenance records and data, is ultimately responsible for making the final selection, of or decisions about replacement hose assemblies and assuring that all performance, safety and warning requirements of the application are met."

Have you mentioned any of this to your friend? Or is he/she still in the dark?