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Fuel additives

Discussion in 'Technical Discussion' started by Jnicholas, Mar 26, 2014.

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  1. SomeTexan

    SomeTexan Member

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    Kerosine is basically high sulfur diesel. I love the stuff for old diesels that can't take the new low sulfur fuels. Nothing magic about it, just when mixed with modern diesel, it raises the sulfur levels in the fuel, that lubricates your ip and will make it last. Of course, too much sulfur in an engine that was designed for ulsd will cause its own set of problems. I do know that many airlines used to run jet-a (known in Europe as kerosine grade a) in their diesel equipment. Of course the EPA took care of that in the 80's-90's. And many farmers still run it in their old equipment. Kerosine, not jet fuel that is.
  2. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    Repeat after me: sulfur is not a lubricant. Sulfur does not lubricate any part of a diesel engine.

    The process used to reduce sulfur content during the refining process removes the aromatics responsible for much of the lubricity inherent in high sulfur distillate fuels. Low and ULSD fuel is blended with a lubricity enhancer before delivery and provides adequate lubrication as delivered.

    Lubricity additives sold aftermarket can enhance lubricity but are not necessary. Adding high sulfur kerosene to ULSD is illegal as well as being pointless and contributing to higher particulate emissions.
  3. SomeTexan

    SomeTexan Member

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    "Lubricity enhancers" are bs. It is proven fact that ulsd has caused hundreds (in not thousands) of pump failures in the automotive/heavy equipment world. And sulfur does act as a lubricant. This is very well known and proven in the automotive world. You may have fallen for EPA bs claiming otherwise, but you are wrong. Why would they add lubricity enhancers to ulsd and lsd if that wasn't the case? Think about it. Since the ulsd hit the market, many of the earlier diesels have had pump failures. Almost every time, the cause of injector pump failure was due to lack of lubrication. Contact Hamilton diesel if you want to find out more. They are one of the diesel performance leaders in the country, and have spent millions in testing, and have worked with Bosch concerning the longevity of ip's, and they work closely with several companies that make diesel additives. Granted, they probably haven't done much if anything with the marine industry, but they are well known and respected in the automotive industry.
  4. ranger58sb

    ranger58sb Senior member

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  5. Bamboo

    Bamboo Senior Member

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    What if my diesel does not have an injection pump? Do I still need to add a quart of canola oil every fill up of say 1000 gallons?
  6. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    So, I'm going to sell some pink snake oil, er, ah, good for your truck.
    It will make it run better and go faster, yea, yea, that's the ticket.

    I, myself will run test that shows it's good snake oil. After all, I am the genius that made the PINK snake oil.

    Nothing up my sleeve; Presto (FM) a report that shows I have good snake oil (imagine that).

    Oh, never mind what the factory says to burn in your engine, Trust me and my pink snake oil.

    Geez, G'Nite ladies.
    ,Ralph
  7. ranger58sb

    ranger58sb Senior member

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    I found it more interesting that many of the additives -- made and sold by the study sponsors -- were found to NOT improve lubricity.

    At least one of those sponsors has apparently introduced a new product since then; not sure if they've taken the previous version off the market or not, though...

    The study is one-dimensional (lubricity) and I guess that some additives were developed to address other issues, either instead or in addition.

    Anyway, I don't have a dog in this discussion, just added what appears to be an attempt to quantify factoids in case anyone cared.

    -Chris
  8. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    I would be more curious about where the last 1000 gallons went if the engine doesn't have an injection pump.
  9. SomeTexan

    SomeTexan Member

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    That's what I was thinking. Maybe thinking of a common rail system and not thinking of the high pressure pump as an injection pump because it doesn't control anything but pressure? Other than that, I think inop engine and fuel tank or line leaking.
  10. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    There must be something in aftermarket fuel additives that affect brain cells. Please reference post #22 and the links below.

    ASTM D975 is the lubricity standard that must be met by diesel fuel sold in the U.S. Initially, (before around 2005) lubricity additives were introduced to the fuel by the refiner before the fuel was delivered by truck, rail or pipeline. However, the same pipelines that carried diesel fuel also carried jet fuel. No lubricity additives are allowed in jet fuel. This meant that a large portion of diesel fuel had to be treated at the truck racks scattered around the country, far from the refiner's control, where bubba poured in the additive and told his friends all about lubricity additives.

    Since his buds couldn't buy the additive directly from the refiner, and the government could care less which additive is used (within limits of course) a market exploded overnight for magic sauce aftermarket additives and the mythology that surrounds them.

    Part of that myhology incorporates the generally erroneous but strangely attractive beliefs about the constituents of additives and their impact on the fuel and engines in which they are used.

    This is a rich environment for the faith based engineer and captain.

    http://www.mtu-online.com/fileadmin...and_lubricants_specifications/A001062_02E.pdf

    http://ddcsn-ddc.freightliner.com/cps/rde/xbcr/ddcsn/DDC-SVC-BRO-0001.pdf

    http://cdn.intechopen.com/pdfs-wm/38157.pdf

    http://www.ncagr.gov/standard/diesellubricityenforcementpolicyletter11504.pdf
  11. SomeTexan

    SomeTexan Member

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    So, if the fuel was mixed to specs, it would be decent. The problem is there is almost zero chance you will get properly mixed/treated fuel? Sounds like a good reason to consider all fuel crap and handle lubricity yourself. I do know it wasn't a problem before they removed the sulfur. When that happened, pumps started failing left and right. P-pumps started seizing pistons and VE pumps started seizing cam plates and breaking rotor heads. Half a pint of Marvel Mystery oil, a pint of 2-stroke oil, or half a gallon of jet-a per tank and the problems went away.
  12. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    Since both MMO and Jet-A have lower lubricity than #2 diesel straight from the pump that is pretty amazing.

    I suggest you do some reading of the specs for Jet-A.

    And as for the MMO claim ... well I did mention faith based didn't I?

    Might be worth taking some time to read about MMO and lubricity when you finish the Jet-A stuff.
  13. SomeTexan

    SomeTexan Member

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    I've heard and seen a lot of bs. I've torn into and rebuilt dozens of pumps myself, and the pumps that had no issues ran one of the combo's I mentioned. I tore into the pump on my drag truck all the time, and I noticed noticed severe wear after 11 1/4 mile passes with straight diesel. A pint of 2-stroke oil took care of that. And having put 600k miles on a truck without a pump failure, all towing a 41' toybox camper and often a second trailer with a car or sandrail on it, I can say it sure doesn't hurt anything.
  14. dennismc

    dennismc Senior Member

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  15. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    That is one of the better publications and one of the most often ignored by the pseudo-scientists, the magic sauce proponents and those who fear even the word "additive."

    "A large number of aftermarket additive products are available to meet these real or perceived needs. Some are aggressively marketed with testimonials and bold performance claims that seem “too good to be true.” As with any purchase, it is wise to remember the advice, caveat emptor, “let the buyer beware.”
  16. ksbguy

    ksbguy Member

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    I certainly would not want to put anything containing chlorine into my fuel unless I absolutely had to. Chlorine will of course lower the PH of whatever it is added to, how much will depend on the volume of the two...

    Here's an article from Caterpillar Engine products division. At top of page 8 in the last sentence of the microorganisms sections they advise that the best prevention method for a microorganism contamination is draining the water.

    https://marine.cat.com/cda/files/949224/7/Fuel for Thought.pdf

    My approach may not work for all as some are too lazy to check fuel tanks for water and drain if needed regularly. Maybe some don't have access. For me on boats I didn't have access, I created access.

    In my book there's no substitution for good multi-stage filtration and "water in fuel" monitoring.

    Knowing what a tiny drop of water can do to a diesel injection system, especially the new common rail engines it's hard for me to understand why anyone would not simply focus on the water problem instead of using additives which won't solve the problem when you have one anyway. I think anyone will agree that if you don't have water, you don't have a microbial problem, or any other serious fuel problem for say...
  17. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    Unless it's my PINK snake oil. It works, I did a test, Trust me......
  18. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    This may be the best comment to anything stated yet. Not sure the author realized he finally had a moment of brilliance.
    I am sure a line like this is in every manufactures installation agreement and owners guide.
    Quotes have been thin here from what the marinizers recommendations, requirements and disclaimers state (this one from Cat). Just from gobbles of rouge sites that may,,with allot of imagination seem to apply.

    Some of you girls need a life.

    Help the bridezillas out there.
  19. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    I know of several mechanics that run a little two cycle oil in their diesel trucks.....Not sure if it helps anything.
  20. Bamboo

    Bamboo Senior Member

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    ... where is the IP on a DD?