Click for Ocean Alexander Click for Cross Click for Mulder Click for Mulder Click for Abeking

Detroit Diesel Heat Exchanger Failure

Discussion in 'Engines' started by CappyP, Dec 11, 2013.

You need to be registered and signed in to view this content.
  1. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2005
    Messages:
    7,427
    Location:
    My Office
    Hi,

    Yacht Jockey, Marmot was asking if it were Kafue that had seen the fire and the engine replacement.

    I was just pointing with the use of a part of your post that it was info in a post originally by you where the words came from not his own words.
  2. Caltexflanc

    Caltexflanc Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2011
    Messages:
    244
    Location:
    North Carolina
    Aqualarm makes a good and reasonably priced selection of raw water flow alarm systems.

    AQUALARM :: OnLine Store :: Comersus
  3. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2005
    Messages:
    14,524
    Location:
    Fort Lauderdale
    The easiest thing to do would be to put a pressure switch on the output side of the raw water pump, where if the pressure drops below say 3 psi, the alarm will sound. I don't remember what pressure you should see on 12v71's at idle speed on the raw water side, but the alarm switch should be a couple of lbs below that and sound an alarm. MAN uses them on both the raw water and coolant on the common rails (a pressure switch that the computer sounds an alarm if it's too low).
  4. dennismc

    dennismc Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2009
    Messages:
    1,177
    Location:
    Vancouver BC
    I think the problem with paddle type flow switches is the build up of salt on the arm and where the arm joins the body, this always makes in line sensors subject to falses when in a hostile enviro. I have a pipe mounted thermostat on all cooling water exits from HEX's set at 140 F or whatever temp it will go off at during normal op temps. There may be in line sensors available that are immune to the salt enviro. Had a steam boiler blow up once due to failure of the water sensing probe due to a lack of proper chemical treatment, the probe was just encased in hard crystalline material and failed to sense a low water condition.
  5. Caltexflanc

    Caltexflanc Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2011
    Messages:
    244
    Location:
    North Carolina
  6. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2005
    Messages:
    14,524
    Location:
    Fort Lauderdale
    I prefer a raw water pressure sender just aft of the raw water pump, over the paddle type sensors for reasons already mentioned. The pressure senders seem to be pretty reliable. I've seen a lot of the paddle type sensors go bad in watermakers and get stuck and stop turning and then they create a little bit of a flow restriction also. The Jabsco style raw water pumps are pretty darn relaible, IF people change the impellors every 200 hours like they're supposed to.
  7. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2007
    Messages:
    3,311
    Location:
    9114 S. Central Ave
    A lot of them eh?

    If your paddle type flow switch starts turning you have other problems ... What kind of watermaker uses a paddle switch for flow metering anyway? Most of them use pressure as an alarm source since output of the boost pump and high pressure pump is related to pressure.

    There is a difference between a paddle wheel flow rate sensor and a paddle type flow switch, or a turbine flow meter. Besides, most units use a rotameter as a flow indicator for the operator.

    Flow metering is used to protect the membrane and give an indication of the pressure required to obtain optimum output which depends on temperature and salinity.

    A paddle flow switch is used to monitor the existence or lack of water flow. It does not measure it.

    Are you sure what you were looking at?
  8. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2004
    Messages:
    13,427
    Location:
    Satsuma, FL
    Any updates? Any more problems? Bet ya already left town.
  9. CappyP

    CappyP New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2013
    Messages:
    6
    Location:
    Daytona/BVI
    Conclusion

    Final Recap.

    We have put 72 hours on this engine after the expansion tank replacement. All parameters and oil consumption are normal and the engine run fine. Our pet theory is that we had a crack in the tank that failed prior to the 7 psi cap relieving the pressure. Of course the root cause was a failure of the raw water pump.

    Of more important note is that upon a subsequent start up, a mere 46 hours after replacing the raw water pump, we had minimal flow and shut the engine down. Upon inspection the raw water impeller had two failed vanes. One was wrapped around the impeller and reducing flow. This was a new impeller.

    I am at the point of inspecting the impeller as often as possible. I have replaced the backing plate hardware with hex bolts and with an impact driver can look inside the pump in a minute.

    We are very fortunate. A few weeks ago, I thought my boat was going to burn to the water line (yes, steam look like smoke). Now as I sit in the BVI, life is good. My friends, who were along for a fun trip, ended up skinning their knuckles and slaving away in an engine room wrestling a big chunk of iron into place. We now have a great story to laugh about.

    Thanks to all on this forum who shared their perspective, it was informative and valuable.
  10. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2008
    Messages:
    8,543
    Location:
    Miami, FL
    Impellers shouldn't fail that often... Something is wrong with the pump or something else.
  11. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2004
    Messages:
    13,427
    Location:
    Satsuma, FL
    A plastic bag or debris of some kind may have passed over the raw inlet. With a restriction of incoming water, water pump vanes really bend over and can get abused quickly.
    I have also noticed strange impeller failures after fresh replacements. What I have learned, NEVER use a (spare?) impeller with dust on the packaging. I do not have a clue what shelf life is supposed to be. But when I find a 'sposed fresh impeller failure, my personal investigation shows it was a shelf queen.

    It's nice to keep spares, I try my best to rotate spares on our boat. I also do not use customer spares and encourage fresh spares. My part sources move enough to insure what I install, is NOT a dust collector.
    NEVER, buy an impeller from e-bay. Remember what NOS means, New OLD stock (or older).
    Big impellers start around $90 & up-to $175. Cheap compared to a whole engine.
    Ruptured H/E case? We may never know the how/why. REAL GLAD to hear no main problems. I do believe there was an hidden flaw that showed it a$% (ugly part) at a time of quick temp change (raw pump failure, debris over intake, sudden raw water temp change, moon over ??? and/or just plain bad luck).

    Life is good in BVI. Getting cold here in south Georgia. You could of invited a few of us, new best friends.....
  12. CappyP

    CappyP New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2013
    Messages:
    6
    Location:
    Daytona/BVI
    Impeller

    I did replace both raw water pumps with "new" pumps that were in the inventory that came with the boat. How new they were, I have no idea. I would guess they hibernated for many years in the box.
    Perhaps sitting for all that time with some of the vanes folded over by the cam would be a precursor for early failure. The shelf life of these items is clearly worthy of consideration. So now they are suspect and I am going to order replacements impellers tomorrow and change them out.

    Attached Files:

  13. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2004
    Messages:
    13,427
    Location:
    Satsuma, FL
    Thank you for sending that picture.

    You can see from the cam wear on the outside edge of the vane, this was not a new (fresh) impeller and had some time on it. This impeller was due (over?) for replacement.
    If you tell me that it is new or very low hours, I need to ask;
    Haw bad are your pump cams? Who is pulling your leg?

    When the vanes came off, I can easily imagine a serious blockage at the cam (grate) restricting water flow. Yep, sudden water temp change.

    Did you mention these were fresh impellers (picture shows different)?

    If the pic is what your talking about (above), there is a leg puller among you.


    AND Yes, If you can question the age of what you put in, can them. Please send pic of what you pull out. Would like to see the edge wear. You may have a bad cam (doubt it, but have to look).

    I'd like to point out, if there is an exhaust/water restriction, the vanes would float and fail also, BUT there is heavy cam wear that proves the pump is pumping and not floating.

    ,rc
  14. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2004
    Messages:
    13,427
    Location:
    Satsuma, FL
    Just got the weather report from da wife. tomorrow morning (sunrise) it will be around 60f. by noon, it will be 40, freezing before sundown.
    Do you need me to look closer at your impellers? Please?
    ,rc
  15. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2005
    Messages:
    14,524
    Location:
    Fort Lauderdale
    I have also seen clogged heat exchangers cause impellors to fail prematurely in addition to what everyone else has said.
  16. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2004
    Messages:
    13,427
    Location:
    Satsuma, FL
    Clogged H/Es would cause the impeller blades to float. You would not see the loaded wear on the blade ends from the cams. Especially with less than 50 hours......
    AND, upon tear down, the raw side of the H/Es looked good.
    The bypass around the inter-coolers will not allow a restriction there. The fuel cooler (inter-cooler bypass) is pass-thru straight tube and no restriction can happen there. The vanes had wear so no restriction at the dump cans, but still need to be looked at.
  17. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2004
    Messages:
    13,427
    Location:
    Satsuma, FL
    Still think I need to come down to double check.
  18. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2005
    Messages:
    14,524
    Location:
    Fort Lauderdale
    I had an issue with a 12v92 with overheating and impellors and the first stop after the raw water pump was a fuel cooler and upon inspection it was packed with broken off zincs even though it was pass through, broken off impellor blades can also get blocked at the entrance as well. I also had an issue with a westberbeke 20kw and it's heat exchanger was also packed with zincs. Something to look at. I also had an overheat issue that was intermitten on an 8v71, eating impellors and it happened to be a 2" spacer that bolted to the r/w pump and air was leaking in there and causing the pump to cavitate.