Commercial Jet in St. Johns River

So why do we have reversers? If not on landing which phase of flight do you use them?

They're installed because crappy landing scenarios never quite work out the way they did on the slide rule (oops, I'm dating myself) and we need all the help we can get. The missing reverser was a HUGE factor, both technical and human. After you've done a few thousand landings in a transport category aircraft you may revise that "factoid".

I'm not a pilot, but on many commercial flights I feel and hear the pilot use the reversers on landing.

Considering how any industry strive to limit costs, why do they bother with thrust reversers if they are no factor?

They are a big factor, especially on slippery and short runways, but not required, hence they can be “locked out” if the mechanism is suspect. (Reverser Not locked) It would be bad if a reverser open during flight.
This Miami Air Flight had 1 reverser locked and you can’t use the other one on a slippery runway due to the asymmetry, it could send the airplane of the side of the runway.
Here is a link to an airplane going of the end, aborted takeoff, they were slow on the reversers and slow to initiate the abort.
(Actions starts at 1:10, be patient)
I was supposed to have flown that one, but the Captain covered for me so I could go sailing in the Bahamas.

okay, quite a debate and a lot of good questions. First, Yes, reversers are used an all landings. they shorten the landing roll and usually must be stowed by 80 knots (in some aircraft 80 knots is a required callout so the landing pilot knows to stow them, otherwise the possibility of foreign objects on the runway could get blown into the engine intake areas...not good. Also, the reversers become less effective under that speed and are not really needed.)

Now, why aren't they used in landing data? I mean, if you got them on the plane, why are they not taken into account on charts and spreadsheets?

Well, best answer is to ask the pencil pushers at Boeing, etc. but I can tell you from experience that the older planes (707s, DC-8s) had many problems with reversers not deploying properly. The 707's cascade reversers would almost always not engage or not stow when required, particularly in cold conditions. Maybe (not sure here, just speculation), maybe the engineers decided that not incorporating them in the landing data would prevent the plane from being MEL'ed (I'll explain later) for dispatch without them operational. So, now you can use the plane without reversers on landing and not take a penalty. This penalty would be in the form of a weight restriction that the plane could carry on takeoff (gets a little complex here), meaning you don't have to leave passengers on the ground who paid for a plane ride because the reversers aren't working. Now, remember that there might be other reasons that I am not aware of, since I don't design planes, so keep that in mind.

Let's see...done here?? Umm, no...MEL, what is it? Each airplane has a list of items that, even if "broken" or inop, it can still fly with. This list is in the form of a book and is called the "Minimum Equipment List" or MEL. This allows you to fly the plane even if you have something inop, that can be worked around and flown safely. Items "MEL'ed" are time limited for repair, depending on the item itself. That should do it for now...I can go deeper, but lets keep it light here.

Upshot??? Yes, you do not NEED reversers...would they have helped the 737 in JAX? Most likely, yes...but we'll never really know for sure. Hope this helps.

Hey, that was a great video, Norseman!

I misstated...The reverser DOES assist in shortening your landing roll; it is not a factor in determining landing distance. In other words, if you have 'em, use 'em, but if they don't deploy upon touchdown, you shouldn't be going off the end. Thanks for the catch on that.

agree completely! What did you fly??

Well, dramatic video, but bad news overall, everybody on the flight deck got fired.
Nr. 1 engine exploded right at V1, rain and high elevation, late abort. Late use of remaining 3 thrust reversers, off the end @ 80 knots.
Boss got me on a phone patch to the SSB on my boat: Come home, we had a crash..(everybody lived)
I had to take a empty airplane down there to Rio Negro with a bunch of mechanics and tools to take off the motors and other expensive pieces then we left the carcass and flew back to home base.
The company folded 2 years later when oil peaked @ $147 per barrel, but I had been recalled to my regular flying job after 4 years on furlough just before that.
Luck is everything in life.

I have flown a bunch of different stuff, retired early a few years ago and now running a little charter boat to keep me out of the bars.
www.odincharters.com

Flew for 19 different operators including little stuff and contracts, etc, lots of
Boeing time, but also DC-3s, DC-8s and twin engine seaplanes, fun stuff.

well, 163/178... there's the 15kt tailwind we discussed. You know, each time we look at a problem like this, it is a chain of problems, not dealt with correctly, that culminates into this. I know you are aware of this, so are other experienced pilots, but the general population just sees this water landing and thinks it was reversers only, not a series of issues, incorrectly dealt with prior to a splash or crash.

Boy, you are not kidding about luck! I was with Fine Air, out of Miami, in '97. I had just talked to the Chief Pilot about taking a leave of absence. My Dad had just died and I was on funeral leave already. I told him that I wanted the rest of the year off and I was going to take the boat to the Bahamas for a year and "chill". Surprisingly, he said "okay"

Fast forward one week later. I am in Bimini with my 51foot docked at Bluewater Marina. I am watching news on satellite TV and they were covering the crash at Miami. I wondered who it was since I knew practically everyone there at the time.

It was Fine Air, they drilled one in after a cargo shift during takeoff. They were heading to Costa Rica, which was my usual trip. I was friggin' stunned!!

Lucky...you bet!

Yeah, better lucky than good..
I remember the Fine Air crash, airplane stood straight up after the cargo shifted, wow.
I flew bush in Alaska, accidents left and right up there, but I survived 3 years without a scratch: Worked for a company that got the world’s first Cessna Caravan, (1984) I was 1 out of only 2 pilots in the company with an ATP and was supposed to fly the Caravan, but took a leave of absence for an extended vacation in the Virgin Islands, while I was there on a sailboat, the Caravan crashed and killed everybody.
I will take luck any day..

was 178 airspeed or ground speed? I hear conflicting numbers. Even so, he did have enough to go around.

Jeez...lucky! It's those Caribbean vacays that saved us. I'm having some rum drinks tonight to celebrate!
I was the Program Manager for the Caravan, years ago, for Flight Safety when they were holding hands with Boeing at the 142 school in Miami. Before that, I flew a Diesel-8 out of Jeddah. Then I got smart and went with the FAA. Was a Supervisor (Front Line Manager) overseeing several 121 airlines...fun, fun, fun.
Maybe we are getting off track here from the original subject.

Aye, Jeddah, my favorite place... Not.
Flew wet lease contracts over there for Saudia Cargo on Evergreen DC-8-73s.
Spent too much time in the sandbox, but it was good for the bank account.
As a project manager for the Caravan, do you remember the crash in Alaska I mentioned above? We were the first Caravan Operator and the first to crash one, sad.
Aha, so you were a POI for several 121 carriers, retired now?
Never had a problem with the FAA, but I always said Yes Sir, No Sir and Certainly Sir.

Yeah, sandbox was interesting, I'd do it again if I had to . Didn't mind it at all.

As for the FAA...no, I was a supervisor and had several POIs, PMIs, and PAIs under me. Had a job offer in the private sector that went south and am going to get reinstated into the FAA (probably not as a Supervisor, but a regular Inspector initially.) Don't know why I left it...great job. You should PM me if you are interested in joining; they are crying for Ops guys. 4 day work weeks, telework from home, all major holidays off and home every night by 4 pm...not bad for aviation. I'm going to leave this topic back for the JAX flight; I kinda hijacked it away.

Now that makes more sense

Yeah, good catch on that, Pascal. BTW, I need to talk to you...boating question on Hatts vs. Browards. Trying to get info to make a decision in a couple of months on which to buy. I tried to PM you, not sure if you got it.

It sure was interesting in the sandbox, but after a while it rubbed me the wrong way: After the Jeddah contracts and after flying to Saudi on DOD contracts for the Desert Shield operation I was offered a job in Kuwait: (They were glad to get their country back) spent a year and a half flying 747s for the National Carrier there, but it was more like a prison: Can’t leave on your days off to pop over to Dubai or London to go pub hopping, they won’t give you an exit visa, you are stuck..Finally did a Houdini and got a job with Tower Air instead, in good old New York.

Thx, but no thx: I am happy goofing off and any job would cut into my beer and Bahamas time, done with flying, maybe I overdid it..

Yeah, we should turn this thread back on track, the Mods are getting antsy, their fingers are hovering over the delete button and we would be toast in nanoseconds..