Catastrophic delamination on a new Bertram 63'...

Maybe I am naive but I reckon modern layups involving cores done according to spec are as reliable as anything else really. No one builds a race boat out of solid fibreglass these days nor would anyone seriously consider adding the extra weight that a solid laminate requires in a larger vessel when you can save HP, fuel and thereby space etc with a decently engineered cored laminate. It seems almost incomprehensible that a Group like Ferretti couldn't get it right in terms of design but perhaps more explicable that their Bertram manufacturing quality assurance has regressed to be somewhat woeful as people at YF are saying. My smallish fishing boat I have at the beach place is a US design and build which I appreciate in many ways but again the quality compromises, unnecessary weight and poor fairing/moulding and crap detailing leaves me p'ed off rather a lot. I think it was a lot of boat for its money but quite a poor comparison in terms of quality with locally built plastic boats.

Maybe wrongly, but I get an impression that the US is some years behind in terms of layup design/build techniques - is this due to volume production building not inviting the innovation and improvement that more custom or low volume building offers as in smaller countries? What happened to an expensive vessel like the 63' Bertram exampled is tragic though, especially in a tough market. Ferretti will need to react tout suite.

I have run more then a few different cored hulls. In comparison to solid fiberglass, they suck. They're noisy, they transmit pounding throughout the entire boat, I haven't seen where the weight savings have made them faster then a non cored vessel (such as a Sportfish), you can't run them in the same sea as non-cored vessel without slowing down (they just don't ride as nice), one improperly sealed hole below the waterline and you have a HUGE mess to fix.

Give me solid fiberglass with strength and save the coring for the decks, not the hull.

Note your point about leaks into the core. I guess that's partly what concerns me. Basic build specs requires any apperture in a cored hull - whether it be in a boat, airliner or a racing car to be supported by a surrounding solid section to take the compression of a fitting. I think also would be against the laws of physics to not gain something from less weight - whether smaller engines for the same performance or more performance from the same engines.

My limited experience is that carbon fibre lamination is pretty noisy (it's relatively thin of course although quite uncommon due to expense) but most other laminations with a core [whether using wood (balsa or cold moulded, strip cedar etc) or a synthetic foam] as used in sports fishers and other similar vessels are largely indistinguishable in terms of running noise transmission - sometimes quieter. Fuel prices, if anything, will probably dictate more acceptance of lighter boats than many currently sold in the US but of course they have to be of quality construction.

I do agree that a heavy boat often has a softer motion (compared to that of a light but similarly shaped hull) but that comes at a higher cost of more HP and fuel etc. The same effect with a light v heavy car or aircraft too when I think about it.

The boats I have seen that were cored, were sometimes faster. BUT, you could not run them as fast in any type of sea as a solid fiberglass boat. Hull design has more of an effect on speed then a cored hull. For example, I was told that Cabo saved 5,000 lbs by going with a cored hull over a solid glass hull on the 52' express. Well to be honest with you, the boat does the same exact speed (within 0.2 knots) if you have 9,500lbs of fuel on board or if you have 2,000lbs of fuel on board. So did that cored hull weight savings make the boat any faster? I have also seen every cored hull boat slow down considerably as it ages, they always seem to get heavier as years go by.

For example a 54' Hatteras SF with a solid hull will cruise at 33-34 knots with C 30 cats. The 52' Cabo Express with C30 cats (with the express being lighter with less wind resistance to start with) cruises at 35 knots. Searay went from cored hulls back to Solid Fiberglass hulls for a reason.

Speaking of Carbon Fiber, Revenge built a 58' SF out of Carbon Fiber in 1987 and produced 3 of them. All 3 origional owners still own them 22 years later. I know one of them with a huge tuna tower "Cookie Too", 1100hp Common Rails does almost 50 knots supposedly. The owner went from 1300 mans and repowered with 1100 Common Rails because it was just plain too fast with the 1300's. Thats the way to go if money is no issue and you want strength and speed. I hear they are producing them again.

Cold molded sportfishes are VERY quiet running, even more quiet then solid fiberglass. Wood absorbs a lot of pounding and noise compared to other cores such as dyvinicel. I think divynicel is a great product to use for decks, and the house of the SF in place of marine plywood. But I would much rather have a solid glass hull with stringers.

I think that the 54 Hatteras convertible is cored with foam from the chines up and has cored stringers which is perhaps a normal concept worldwide these days given that it is a realistic way of achieving significant weight savings yet maintaining impact resistance without using Kelvar or something more exotic in the forward under hull sections.

By the way, a wealthy Floridian had a 90' Robert Ullberg S/F design built by Vaudrey Miller with a lot of carbon fibre in it (and a superyacht interior) and the name was reputed to be "Satu". Must be a very shy owner because there has been total silence from the designer and builder about it for some time. Was to have been launched last year - has anyone seen or heard of it?

Sys Sussmans Bertram

The Bertram is the 63' "Certifiable" out of Palm Beach. Owned by Syd Sussman an avid tournament fisherman and nice guy might I add. Event happened two weeks ago while fishing a sailfish tournament in Palm Beach.

I would be certifiable too, if that happened to my sportfish. hehehe

Where is the boat located now?


On another note with the Feretti wearing through with hurricane damage. If they don't encapsilate the core with enough layers of glass because they're trying to save weight and money, it doesn't take much to wear through the outer fiberglass layer (with a piling or similar). Then once you do that, the fiberglass being more flexible (if it's not thick enough/enough layers of matting) then the core will peel right off easily once you get underneath it. If there are enough layers of fiberglass outside of the core, the fiberglass is thick enough to be more rigid and flexes less, so it won't peel off of the core as easily. Like when you start prying under two pieces that have been 5200 together. If you can get leverage with a putty knife/screwdriver etc. then you can pry them apart easier........Like on this Bertram pic, see how it's an entire sheet of it, but if you look closely at the pics, the fiberglass sheet does not appear to be very thick at all.....maybe two layers of matting.

Sort of like Think of how flexible formica is and how you could wear through it or bend it and break it. If it is glued to plywood, then it is strong and durable. But once an edge starts lifting from the plywood, it doesn't take much to just chip the formica off.

Sounds like you've dealt with a warranty department.

Are you sure ? A sweeping statement indeed....hull structure is just one of hundreds of factors considered when designing a composite yacht. Taking hull structure in isolation, there are many factors to consider when choosing between a cored and monolithic laminate. Too many to get into here, but considerations such as impact strength, durability, additional 'free stiffening' (by that I mean the longitudinals, bulkheads and tank structure that are required on larger craft and may as well be used as part of the shell stiffening and panel breakers) all the way through to perceived quality and inherent strength demanded by a loyal customer base (yes, some customers will NOT buy cored bottomed boats) will not always result in a cored bottom being the best option.
Cored laminates have their uses absolutely, but they are not a structural specification default by any means.

Yes, it was a sweeping statement but I guess that the S/F market expecting 40+ knots in the US, the builders have to be looking at every weight saving they can achieve to compensate for the larger engines and tankage required for achieving that speed. Obviously at 40+ knots the water itself becomes pretty solid to hit let alone risk of flotsam. Sea swell states offshore here in NZ average at probably 1.5 metres and up to 3 metres, often shortened up by wind v currents etc., so much more than 25 knots cruise is largely irrelevant locally unless you want your teeth to fall out, irrespective as how heavy/light the boat is.

I was at the Bertram factory a few years back and was very unimpressed. Everything you can not see in their boats seemed to be done very sloppy and they liked to hide things so that when there is a problem there is not shot at getting there to fix it. Also the way they made the interiors scarred me because all they used was thin plywood to hold up the walls. Common Bertram you should be able to built a boat that rivals others made around he world.

Speed, price and a fancy salon. Do you mean to say there is something else important in a yacht. What do you mean "flotsam"? If a boat hits something doing 70kts doesn't it just push it out of the way? If I have a bunch of money and can drive a Ferrari what do I need a captain for? Yacht warranties cover everything from 'front' to 'back' don't they? I mean the company is depending on me buying their brand in the future so they'll stand behind it right? 2009/2010 are going to be opening a lot of eyes and surprising a lot of people. Someone mentioned Richard Bertram earlier. I dare say he wouldn't like where this business has gone recently. Quality?

Overall, I think it is a bit ironic that the modern technologies that, in most cases, had there origins in the US are poorly used by some builders there. Maybe the training of US boatbuilders in recent years has failed to meet the needs of the modern industry and demands made of designs? It's probably symtomatic that Team Oracle is just completing its composite build facility in Warkworth, NZ - albeit that their new America's Cup yachts will have to be finished in the States in order to meet the (somewhat bent) rules of manufacturing origin. Not just the exotic race yacht business, the amount of subcontracting that goes on here for US and European high-end boatbuilders has grown to be quite significant let alone the compelete builds of custom vessels, including superyachts and tenders.

Even so, it would be sad to see a name like Bertram go down the proverbial due to poor quality. Shouldn't happen.

Capt. J,

I find your comments about cored hulls fairly misconceived. Are you even *vaguely* familiar with the processes of stress, fracture and torsional testing that takes place by composite manufacturers? Have you any idea how extensively composite laminates are used in sound insulation? Did you ever wonder… if composites are so inferior, why are most builders using them?

About the only thing that resonates better than solid glass… is a wine glass. And guess what? They both fracture.

Please, let's leave opinions on the side line and put expertise on the field.

Boats are just not built like they were used to...

even the boats from the 80's seem to be lasting longer than the modern ones IMO. simple observation....

Bertram Yacht's Response- 630

Based on the information presently available and evaluations made to date by Bertram, the situation with the 630 is an isolated problem unique to that particular boat and does not represent a systemic problem in design or construction present on other 630 hulls.

Jiannina Castro
Marketing & Communications
Bertram Yacht

Bertram Yacht's Response- 540

Bertram fully understands that everyone will have their own opinion about our boats and we welcome the passionate debate. We do, however feel that, the opinions should reflect the facts.

The new Bertram 540 was indeed a successful hull from the earlier years, however it was built from a new mold and the design was engineered with the same philosophy of providing the best ride in the sport fishing industry. The boat has been trialed by many enthusiasts and esteemed editors, but we welcome anyone that doubts our ride to experience it themselves. The front windshield that was addressed in the Yacht Forum was a temporary prototype that was displayed in the Ft. Lauderdale Boat Show, which was communicated openly at our press event during the show. Furthermore, the engines listed in the article were incorrect, as they are actually twin Cat-32s. The B540 will be on display at the upcoming Miami Boat Show for all those who wish to see her.

Jiannina Castro
Marketing & Communications
Bertram Yacht

Hull is laid in America. Interiors come from Italy. Feretti Group is an Italian company that is part owned by a English investment group.

Yeah, I know.