Catastrophic delamination on a new Bertram 63'...

Hi,

These fellas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shipworm

Ah you science types, "teredo" worms. I just knew them as worms. The results were the same. Truth be knownst I've always had a saying: "If you want to keep me from buying a boat put a piece of wood on the outside". Sanding, painting, caulking, replanking, refastening and don't forget to drop plenty of sawdust in the haulout slip before dropping her in. (Do yards even still save their sawdust?) I've worked on many (getting paid by the hour) which convinced me to never own one. I'm with Marmot on this one although I love seeing them as long as it's someone elses efforts and checkbook getting the exercise.

It didn't take long to discover that a 65X22X12 foot wooden box in the water consumed more time and money than a 36x22x34 inch alternative.

Loren

In over 40 years of Dad's boat in the waters of the Caribbean, he did own a boatyard but he never let anyone else out of the family work on it, we had one worm.

In '91 we got a worm around one fastening that created a bit of a weep. After trying to bung up the hole with sawdust from below, we bit the bullet and replaced the plank, oh and put a new teak deck on in our spare time. Job done in three months. Several years after selling her, the new owner has had no other problems.

She was a pretty little 30' sloop designed by Charles Nicholson, hull laid before WW11 but put in a shed near Falmouth, Uk, unfinished until afterwards. She was called Bacco.

I still miss a beat when I see her in St. Barts.

Fish

I agree with you there. A classic trumphy is a beautiful boat as long as you are not the person walking around in a 360 degree circle with a paint or varnish brush 5 days a week. LOL

NOW, a cold molded sportfish on the other hand is a great hull....... speed/ lightweight, strength, and not nearly as maintanence heavy as wood.

J

Looking at the flared bow of a Carolina charter boat should inspire you to get the paintbrush out. Bristol fashion beats a Broward.

Hi,

Isn't a cold molded boat actually a wooden boat?

Yes K1W1

Its just one of the more modern wood construction methods. One of my favourites is cedar strip laminates.

This is where thin small strips of wood that are soaked in epoxy are stapeled (yes I did say use a staple-gun} are fixed to a wooden mould, when hardened remove the only-halfway-in staple and apply the next layer diagonally with thin strips.

Very strong and light. Can you beat this for carbonfibre.

Also K1W1 do you remember a boat in Cannes called 'Acachou' a 120' cold moulded motoryacht designed by Jon Bannenberg (my least favourite designer)? It had rubbish lines, as normal from Jon, though he was constrained by how far he could bend plywood. If he had used the above system he could have created a real beauty with Riva-like varnished topsides.

Fish

Hi,

I am familiar with the ACAJOU having worked for a previous owner of it.

Built by Chantiers Navals de L’ Esterel, Motor Yacht Acajou was named after the very material of which she was built. The immensely strong Esterel mahogany hull absorbs vibration and sound, enhancing the pleasure of cruising at speed in safety and comfort.

Yes, the wood is used as a core and then coated with layers of epoxy so the wood is sealed inside epoxy both on the outside of the hull and the inside. It's kind of like fiberglass in terms of maintanence.

I was on the prototype as well. You forget to mention the boat doesn't turn at speed (it just lays over on one side) and that at speed in straight line it porpoises to the point of madness. This isn't the first 63 to suffer lamination issues, there have been several more (including the first 63 Moppie which ripped one of the engines off the stringers), this is just the first one that the factory wasn't able to cover up. I also wouldn't lay the blame with the Ferretti ownership, Bertrams have been built like crap for years. I have a 1995 30 Moppie whose hull sides are cored with balsa, this would be fine if the factory had properly treated the areas of the hull side that they penetrated (vents, thru hulls etc), but since they didn't literally the entire hull sides are full of rotted nasty old balsa. You would think they would have learned after the disaster with the 72! Essentially IMO Bertram has been operating in some form of financial distress since the early 90's, when operating under those circumstances its hard to keep quality control where it should be. Since the Ferretti ownership they've done nothing but build designs that their target audience doesn't care for (the sales figures prove my point) and using questionable engineering which basically try to emulate motor yacht thinking into a sportfisherman. Perfect example is the poster who said the 57 was a wet ride, that would be hard to believe considering the 57 is the old Napier designed 54 stretched 3 feet, but with Zuccon groups styling and that goofy forward mounted fuel tank, they've managed to move the LCG forward enough to ruin the boats ride!

IMO its time for an ownership (and ideology change) at bertram otherwise they will end up going the way of other old great names (IE Chris Craft)...

I experienced NO porpoising. The boat ran properly trimmed. As for turning... we entered a high speed, 180 degree hard turn inside Government Cut at around 30 knots that was completely uneventful. I had NO problem with the handling of the boat. However, I heard through the grapevine that it's larger sibling, the 67', was a pogo stick. Can't confirm, wasn't there.

I need to divulge something... Dick Bertram was a friend of the family. So was Moppie. If he was alive today to see this non-sense, it would become a non-issue. Dick was instrumental in guiding me toward a career in Naval development. He introduced me to Frank Denison and Jack Hargrave. Because of this, I feel a certain kinship... responsibility if you will... to speak up because he can't.

I totally agree with this, not to mention some other wonderful features on the 57' Bertram

1. I'm 6'3 and there wasn't a bed on the boat (including the master) that my ankles didn't hang off of.

2. The dinette table was mounted so close that it pressed against my stomach and I am 225lbs. The owner couldn't get into it at all.

3. The companion seat, there wasn't enough room between the steering wheel and helm seat, or the helm seat and back bar on the FB for the owner to squeeze by to get to the companion seat. I could hardly wiggle past the steering wheel to run the boat myself.

4. ALL of the bulkhead to stringer tabbing broke loose. The bow pulpit also was cracking where it met the hull. The largest sea I had the boat in was 5'. The joinery from both doors in the salon head to the ceiling cracked from frame to ceiling.

5. The boat was a 2005 (new at the time) and had a standard 27" TV in the salon and a standard 13" TV in the master.

6. The 1700 gallon fuel tank mounted in front of the engine room, and 300 gallon waste tank mounted foward of that DID cause the boat to be totally bow heavy and mess up the center of gravity

7. The boat never raised FISH, ever trolling. Also the wash was horrible.

8. The size of the fish box was a total joke.

9. Everytime you flushed a head, the lights dimmed throughout the entire boat.

10. The Racor's were mounted below the fuel tank level so if there was ever a fuel leak anywhere, any of the lines or fittings, it would gravity fill the entire boat.

11. The cockpit was very wide, but short, so if you had a fullsize chair in it you could hardly get past it.

12. Rod storage was non-existant.

A 61' Viking made this thing look like a Bayliner.

My take on the ferretti built sportfisherman is very simple. The SF guy is IMO a meat and potatoes kind of guy. The boat is to look a certain way, notice how even a new viking looks like its an evolution of the boat that came before it? Compare that to the Ferretti bertram or even the late model Hatteras SF's that literally look like they were squeezed through someones ass! Steak is real simple, but when I go out to one of the "hip" new restaurants and order steak I end up getting steak with caramelized onions drizzled with a fennel reduction and a side of mashed butternut squash. YUCK! ALL I WANTED WAS STEAK! Keep it simple, don't try to reinvent the wheel. When I see the new 54 all I see is whats wrong with Bertram, interior layouts that have never worked (aft galley), machinery layouts that make no sense and styling THAT SIMPLY DOES NOT BELONG ON A TRADITIONAL AMERICAN SPORT FISH!

Ferrettis global head of engineering (Andrea Frabetti) told me in 1999 that it was their intention within the next 3 years to completely eliminate all the Napier designed hulls (basically the hulls the company had built their reputation on) and introduce the "superior" Ferretti hull design. So much for the "superior" hull design, look at the bottom of the new 54 and then take a look at the bottom of a new 50+ sea ray. Simply laughable. It seems to me that the Italians have a certain disdain for what the traditional bertram buyer wants, even before the economy tanked, the domestic market basically rejected the new bertram products (there are still new 2006 boats in stock at dealers), so who exactly are they designing these boats for?

That must have been after the third or fourth set of rudders. The initial sea trials before the lauderdale show were horrible, the boat would bank into the turn then just lay on its side. Here's a peek at that wonderful bottom...

I can see exactly how that boat can lay on one side of the keel in a turn and the keel looks a bit wide , there isn't enough flat area in the stern IMO. Why wouldn't they re-use the origional 54' hull with newer lines? It rode great, was very fast, and great. (I ran a 54' with a hardtop with 12v71's that had 4600 origional hours and it ran 30 knots at 1850 rpms.)

It's like the first 58' HATT SF's way back, they were so bad you'd literally have to tie yourself to the tower or the boat would eject you in a beam sea. Then they added that chine that runs along the entire hull side to fix it.

Did you mean 53' HATT SF?

Please refer to paragraph two of post 44.

So getting back to this 63', what has happened to it?