Brokers & surveys

When a person puts down a budget busting $5,000 and uses their boat less than 100 hours a year you'd be surprised what can be lived with for many seasons. There have been more than a few boats on which I've refused to ruin my clothes doing engine room checks (and subsequently refused to work on at all) because of the amount of oil and anti-freeze everywhere.
Back in my hooptie days I had a $100 car that dropped a qt. a day. I wasn't about to do a rebuild on a $100 hooptie. EJ Korvettes oil at $0.50 a gallon, a little anti-freeze and Stop Leak kept it going for nearly 50,000 miles. When it finally dumped 5 qts. in one day a thief I knew asked to borrow it.

My new opinion of a "good survey" for a boat that is supposed to be "squawk free" would include a few days cruise while living onboard and developing a list ... then a second few days after the list of items is supposedly fixed.

I continue to be amazed by the number of systems on a sizable boat and what it takes to get it all working properly or upgraded to like new condition.

One thing I noticed is that it's very easy for the broker (or surveyor) to have VERY LITTLE KNOWLEDGE of how to even operate the boat and it's systems. Therefore, many squawks during a survey can be written off to "oh .. well .. I'm just not completely sure how that operates ... but it worked last week when the owner was here ..." There is a price that you will ultimately pay for each time the broker/surveyor says that. The price could range from $5k-$100k each time they say something so absurd.

Also working and ready to fail at anytime is a very common state for many systems. I remember checking the windlass on my Bertram 54 ... it worked ... but it had not been serviced in probably 15 years. Therefore a basic service of course was out of the question and it needed a complete overhaul. Well over $5k before all was said and done.

Another good trick is the broker and surveyor who "do not have authorization or enough knowledge or correct insurance coverage" to operate the boat and actually go anywhere. So ... the survey is limited to poking around, starting the engines and generators and trying to operate the systems while sitting at the dock with little knowledge about the actual boat.

Be careful out there

Gawd I wish I could post some examples ...

Easy fix. Alias screen name. I won't say a thing.

That's one of several reasons why it's also a good idea to bring your captain as well. I was once involved in a sale that, when the buyer showed up for survey brought a friend for company (no surveyor, no captain). I don't care how mechanically inclined a buyer is, he's wearing rose colored specs even if he does know his way around. You need a trusted person who would rather talk you out of buying. As for a survey that doesn't include putting the boat through its paces, don't even bother. That's like the HMY lawsuit boat that was sea trialed in Lake Worth.

Speaking of suing for fraud in cases of "limited disclosure", it's a fair challenge to prove they did knew. Reference cases, where the buyer readily locates previous candidates and/or surveyors and they just as readily testify in his favor are just the tip of the iceberg.

In practice, claiming ignorance is simple, clean and easy. Proving otherwise is difficult, messy and could take any amount of time, effort and further financial investment in the case. Successes in that quest make headlines (such as abovementioned HMY), but failures go mostly unnoticed.

The problem is, this puts broker and seller in a very clear conflict of interests position. They are objectively determined to sell the boat at the highest possible price in the shortest possible timeframe. This is rarely coaxial with accurately and exhaustively representing all the shortcomings, defects and potential troubles there may be. The "reputable surveyers" stuff gets very stressed off it. Anyone who remembers the reputable financial auditor Arthur Andersen will see that

are we talking HEAD GASKET or CAM COVER GASKETS??

a head gasket is not something minor since the usual symptoms are loss of coolant and/or steam in teh exhaust.

then you're talking about sawdust and stain on your clothes...

i think you're confusing engine components there... a head gasket will not result in oil leaking of the engine!!!

as to the original poster's question, it really depends on what defects and issues you are taking about. very few boats will pass a REAL survey with no issues reported by the surveyor. it's pretty normal to have minor issues reported and typically thigns a broker may not be aware of.

as others have mentioned, if a buyer gets a boat surveyed and then backs out because of the survey, the broker may not know the details unless the buyers specifically accepts to "give" the survey to the broker or the seller and authorize them to use it.

the surveyor, if ethical, will not release the survey to the broker, seller or future buyer without the approval of teh person who paid for the survey.

You normally put a deposit on a boat, subject to survey and sea trial. After this is performed and if some faults are found, you can either back out and get your deposit back, or you negotiate the final price depending on who will take the cost to fix it. All of this is handled by the brokers, so of course the selling broker will know the result of the survey.

The exception is when a buyer is backing out because he didn´t like something about the boat that is not disclosed, perhaps got scared by the yachts complexity, the yachts motion or whatever. This is to the buyers discretion and the broker may never get the real reason.

Good catch Pascal. That's what comes from living on your own boat in addition to running them ( you have to do more DIY). In a senior moment I was of course thinking of the manifold seal and/or cam cover. Sorry for the misdirection all. Surprised the engineers here didn't pick it up. Personally, I'm not a mechanic and don't pull engines apart past changing a waterpump.

Maybe because you strongly defended the proposition that it was the head gasket. Maybe because you talked about leaking anti-freeze. If you tell me the generator is making a funny noise I am not going to go listen to the windlass.

Cam cover? Rocker arm cover? Those are about the easiest and quickest gasket replacements going and they sure as heck don't leak anti-freeze.

I think there is some maneuvering astern going on here.

If I tell an engineer that I think my head gasket is leaking because my engine is leaking oil & anti-freeze outside but there's no water in the oil inside nor overheating nor that lovely white smoke from the exhaust (as previously stated) I hope as a professional, who's supposed to know more than me, that he corrects my mistaken reference rather than giving me a $3,000 bill for work not needed. Some may have different agendas than being honest and helpful though I guess.

This we had to know to get a driving license, for cars. You are certainly talking about a leaking head gasket...

Hi,

If someone told me that these were the symptoms on a marine diesel I would tend to suggest that there might be a problem with the Jacket Water Pump rather than the head gasket as my first diagnosis.

A lot of pumps have a small hole in the bottom of the pump casing which is a tell tale hole to indicate a problem with the pumps seals at an early stage.

I joined a 54m Yacht once and found that the LP F.O. Pump on the Stbd ME had a small wooden plug in the tell tale hole, the second engineer told me the previous C/E had done that because it was leaking fuel and made a mess, the fact that F.O. was getting into the Lube Oil was clearly shown on the SOS Reports but no one seemed to have taken much notice of that column in the previous 500 hrs since the levels were elevated.

Pretty quickly after I joined the 2nd Engineer went the same way as the previous C/E and got sent home.

Funny how the word "think' got into the thread. It started out with "leaking head gasket" and "until water starts mixing with the oil or it's dumping a quart a day that's the way it is."

The discussion was about things that were wrong and should be disclosed. You stated categorically that a leaking head gasket wasn't among the things that needed to be disclosed because so many of the boats you drive have leaking head gaskets and it costs too much to repair them.

You didn't describe a number of symptoms for which you had no diagnosis and say that those symptoms were not worth mentioning, you described a specific mechanical condition that you would not disclose.

You can go astern all you like but we have your track on our ECDIS, we know where you were.

Your second mistake was wondering out loud why the engineers here didn't question your specific description of a condition you regularly encounter. If you say you are in New York are we supposed to ask if you might really be in Atlantic City? If you say you are on a Bertram are we to ask if it is really a Hatteras?

Don't know about others, but when I need someone to hear what I think, I either sign up for a job where my skills are needed or hire a psychotherapeut. When I hire a specialist to advise me on the field where my expertise lacks, I prefer to listen to what he thinks...

Maybe some missed this: " In a senior moment I was of course thinking of the manifold seal and/or cam cover. Sorry for the misdirection all." Some of us readily admit when they are wrong or mistaken. Sorry folks for not being perfect. And thanks again to Pascal for straightening me out. He saw my error and alerted me in a way that many will find educational.

Getting back to disclosures from brokers here is an example of a disclosure I made on one of my listings that sold this year. About five years ago a former owner of the yacht died on board. He was in the engine room and when his wife called to him to help move some groceries he grabbed a pipe to lift himself up. Unfortunately that pipe held the manual release cable for the fire extinquisher release cable and the pipe broke setting off the CO2 system. When his wife tried to drag him out of the engine room she died also.
Did this effect the sea keeping ability of this yacht, detract from the cosmetics, or actually effect the value? No but I thought it was needed to inform a buyer. If it seemed to bother a buyer too much I suggested that they not drive on Route 95 because hundreds have died on that highway. One couple actually said no to the boat because of the deaths, but that might have just been an excuse not to buy.