Bertram Sportfish Yachts Coming Back???

Olderboater, your opinion of what is marketable or not is just that, yours. I offer my opinions as someone who has drawn his only source of income from this industry since 1988.

Your comments lean more towards Convertible than Sportfish, and that is where the compromise takes place. They will never be able to take on the CC crowd in this size range, it is a losing battle on speed and essentially a day fisherman, and I would not even bother taking them on.

It comes down to a question of branding, value and the potential for profits. There are many ways to skin that cat and the default solution appears to be a stretch to 35', but that changes power requirements, costs, as well as slip / storage and cost of ownership.

So yes, my vision would not be to hit the 35' mark with a near Cabo replacement (most likely with raised engine boxes) and take a different approach.

Often times what we call heritage is overrated. It never was as good as remembered and surely wouldn't be against today's standards. Ford Mustang may be one of the greatest examples of a car evolving upon it's return. Corvettes of today are sure nothing like the early ones. Most of us would have zero interest in riding around on a daily basis in a car as poor riding and with as few amenities as those had. Unfortunately the most recent heritage of Bertram was pretty bad, a lot of quality issues, not the boat they once built. The heritage the new owners are reaching for is not to build a boat like the older ones, but to build a boat similar that can stand out in today's market as that boat did in that time. If they build a quality 35' SF that rides and performs well, then in my mind they will have been true to the heritage. Restoring heritage is recapturing the spirit more than it is the specifics.

I will be amazed and impressed if they are successful. I hope they are though. I definitely see the need.

All opinions are just that. Mine is based on what I've observed. But this is the statement I was addressing in that comment:

"I personally wish they would exercise some restraint and come out with a 31' model that would not try to pack it all in. Limit it to a CAT C7 from 375 - 461 hp. But like the Cabo models that MP was designing, I fear that they will get caught up in the hp wars and you will see C9's or even C12's that drive up weight and cost, with little impact on usable speed."

Before that you were talking about amenities and I interpreted you wanting restraint in them as well. Maybe I misinterpreted. I do see the market today as wanting amenities, wanting equipment that didn't exist on the 31's and wanting them packed in. I also see a market in that type boat wanting horsepower even when you and I wouldn't judge the benefit equal to the negatives.

Cabo was the last boat selling in that range and type. That's why they get mentioned.

I never thought I'd see four 350 hp or four 557's. When we bought a 39' CC and asked for three 300's, it's as if there was disbelief we didn't at least want 350's.

I respect your time in the industry. However, I also do believe they must market to today's market and the amenities desired, equipment, bells and whistles, and hp. While your experience goes back to 1988 and that is certainly of tremendous value, it also goes back to a very different time in the industry and includes many changes along the way. I'm simply addressing what I observe today and if your observations on today's market are different, I definitely respect them.

Whatever it is, I hope they build a boat that will fit today's market needs and will sell. I can only assume they've done the research to figure out how and will await seeing the real boat.

I'm surprised and very pleased to just see the name revived. I do hope they get it right.

As a boat that I think did revival right, I want to mention Riva. I think the Aquariva and Rivarama capture the heritage beautifully. Now I do admit to extreme prejudice as an owner of a couple.

I was using the difference in power to show the impacts of "design restraint' and it is one driver that will eliminate the potential to keep the hull length within the original 30' 6" length. I am not a fan of the new Swiss Army knife design approach, trying to capture all and be the all in a given envelope, as I would rather have a boat that does a few things outstanding rather than a multitude of things in a mediocre fashion.

The best modern translation of the 31 Bertram I can recall was done by Charles Jannace (Blackfin design fame, and others) in a model called Liberty, approximately in the 38 - 40' range, a picture from google below.

I know exactly what you're talking about in trying to keep it within 30'6" and from Carl's post it would seem they aren't trying to do that. To me stretching it to accommodate what many of today's boat buyers want makes sense. Doesn't mean it will work, just that it's somewhat logical.

Many of us who buy boats are part of the size creep. That's why CC's are getting larger every year. Yet, looking at your view, I'd offer the counter argument that Boston Whaler still sells a lot of relatively plain small CC's. Problem is they aren't going to fishermen. We started out wanting a boat for the loop. We said 50'. Then positively not more than 60'. Now we're about to order a 65' that measures 69'1".

Honestly, I don't know who the buyer of a 31' or 35' Bertram is. Is it a serious fisherman or is it a family man for family boating? I look back at all the boats they sold under 30'. In some ways, their challenge isn't bringing Bertram back, it's opening back up an entire market niche. From their website, it would seem they're definitely targeting fishermen. In Mexico and in Central America I saw a lot of Bertram's being used for fishing charters. That's the only time I've been out in a Bertram.

I see a great potential if they can convince people that you don't need 45' or more to enjoy fishing, that you can do it just as well in a 35' boat and save a lot of money.

So here's my question to you. The person who would now be a potential buyer for a Bertram 35'. What has he been buying the last few years? What did he go to instead? Where has the Cabo buyer turned?

The west coast Cabo buyer was generally an experienced and savvy fisherman. Lots of them with very little "bunk' hours for their age as a lot were used as day boats or island overnighters, but not much weekend in the slip usage. And it is a good question as to where the 35' Cabo buyer has gone, since Hatteras pretty much abandoned him/her. I know about 4 of them who have gotten out of boat ownership and fish resorts or long range trips. They are also more focused on their business and have less leisure time, something I think is true for many others. And their grown kids do not seem to have to boat owning bug, are too busy doing seasonal adventures rather than focus solely on the boating lifestyle.

Out west everything this size is pretty much wet slipped, no plethora of boat lifts behind the waterfront homes as on the East coast, so there is a larger market drain to the CC world on the East coast. That has helped Outboards gain the traction we have scene in the CC market.

So I would be less willing to go head to head in the 34'+ CC market and do as you say, create or reopen a new market niche. But this is were all the extras, bigger power and amenities start to price you out of a certain niche level and into the quad OB CC market. Don't want to tread there.

So I would concentrate on the lower price point (hence the scope restraint) to get a foot hold on my niche market, because selling a $450 - $550K FB SF is not too appealing when you can get a lot more FB SF loa on the used market at that price point.

If it was up to me, I would be somewhere in the $275K - $375K range and focus on these five items:


Construction Quality / Innovation
Ride Quality / Maneuverability
Fish ability
Useable speed (no more than 35 knots max) / Range
Decent FB layout
Entertain 5 / sleep 4 / fish 3 + captain

The origional 31's were very fast boats with modern lightweight power. I believe PacBlue hit their negatives on the 31's pretty well. I do believe some people are tired of the Center Console deal, the wives anyways and a tiny head and no protection. Nowhere to put the luggage if you run to Bimini, etc. etc. The 31' Bertram was very center console like in that it had a very long cockpit, over half the boat. I think if they came out with a 35' that's fast, like cruises at center console cruise speeds, is efficient, and has more ammenities, like a larger bridge and comfortable berth/cabin for 2, it will sell. I think they're going in the right direction and they need to carve a niche from 31
-50' then move up. Lots of people like the retro look. Heck there are lots of people spending $300k to restore old 31's.

And, to be honest the old Napier and previous hull designs leave nothing to be desired compared to a Peters or Blount hull design with the weight executed right. You get more speed, better ride, drier, and don't rock and roll like crazy at rest or on the troll.

It's a very challenging task and will be interesting to watch. The boating world has learned to live with nothing filling this niche. I don't know how you create the excitement needed. Then to add to the questions, you're trying to renew an American heritage with an Italian built boat. Well, strike that. Their website now says Built in America. Earlier he was saying initially in Italy. So, anyone know where they're being built? They say Lyman-Morse is building the prototypes.

Lyman-Morse, the prototypes are the first boats....I don't think they're sure they can continue/sell from there......You know Bertram's real Mainstay was from 28'-54, then like every builder they wanted to go bigger and bigger and forget the smaller and entry market. We'll see where it goes.....but look at raceboats.....I remember when it seemed every other boat sold was a race boat......most of those builders disappered, but a few stayed strong or at the cutting edge and are doing quite well.

As to keeping it 31', you cannot, today's buyers DO NOT want that. The 31's held like 120 gallons of fuel and gas inboards or very small diesels. Today's buyer wants a heck of a lot more fuel than 120 gallons and diesels.....the old 31's just can't carry that extra weight. Could you build a boat that could in 31, yeah, but then you can't keep the same look/lines. You'd need more freeboard, so you had a higher cockpit floor and more beam.

Yes, they will not make money on the Lyman-Morse builds, but their announced plan is to get a plant in NC, SC, GA or FL. I think they're going to wait to see if it's viable.

A big challenge to match the feel of the 31 is the cockpit length, that included full raised engine boxes. This gave the boat a smaller house structure and limited flybridge, which also limited the amenities in the main cabin (if you could call it that) . It also makes it tough to balance the weights / centers. Cabo was unique in that they were the first production builder (I believe) to move the raised engine boxes halfway into the salon and create a larger more useable cabin. That was the main design innovation that set them apart. There quality construction put them ahead of Bertram and Blackfin and the rest was history.

But the 31 look was part of its appeal and it will be interesting to see how much the main cabin grows to capture more of the amenities than the hardcore SF look. Black Watch built a 30 / 34 / 40 (started in the US, ending up in Australia) that could never really take hold while Cabo was selling plenty of product.



Thinking way out of the box, you could go twin / triple outboards and fix that proportion fairly easily, would they even dare?

Also, starting from scratch, I would hope they go to an infused hull / structure process, if they can get a quality finish without extensive labor hours.

I do applaud those willing to enter the boatbuilding market though, and there is some truth to the saying "if you build it, they will come".

It is not like they have an option or do they not.
When FG launched the new 540 in 2009 with front windshield everyone was ready to say it will never work, windows will leak and so on so forth.
Move a year later and we saw also a custom builder (Jarrett Bay) try it. Still as at today it is not like the sportfisherman in the US want it, the one down-under (see Riviera and Maritimo) do, but they are a rather more casual folk.

Micheal Peters is considered by many one of the best Deep Vee designers in activity, I think only Brunello Acampora from Naples can be considered as good as him for a pure deep Vee design.
His curriculum is considered a whos who, and he has also been know to improve what was considered a very good hull see Magnum 80.
The Codega designed Cabos are not considered bad but they where also reported as being very wet, he did improve a lot on that design on all the models he handled after taking the reigns of Cabo.

By what I have seen the 35 will be inspired by the old 31 but should be a total new design. It will be a wider boat for sure.

The Condega designed Cabo's were wet, pounded a little bit and so forth. The Peters design fixed all of that. The 45' Hatteras EX rides exceptionally well as I lit one up to WOT coming out of Port Everglades (for a seatrial/check with ZF on board) and at a touch over 40 knots heading straight into 5' seas it rode very well. In the old days the Cabo 45' was my favorite and I prefered the ride over the 40' everyone loves. I prefered the 45' over the 52' even. The 45' has more of a big SF handling feel (turning and such) and the 40' had more of a nimbler small boat feel. Although the 40' Zues expresses were a lot of fun to wring out. I favored the 44' over the 40' as well, but that's my personal feeling. The helm hardtop on the 40' was a little too low and windshield height compared to the 44' for me being 6'3, just effected vision out.

A friend of mine dealt with one of those 540' Bertrams, one of the last boats they built and it had a ton of issues, a ton. Bertram spent months working on the boat after delivery. The front windshield takes up too much valuable interior storage that's normal in that spot behind the windshield.

As many on the forum know, I am NO bertram fan by any means. However, I do really like the concept of the new 35', so that means a lot. I always liked the looks of the 31', but never liked the small bridge, the rocking, or the wetness.

Your posts are terrific.
They give a builders insight into the reasoning and combat between design/function and their restrictions which are then compromised by what the client demands.
The “new” Bertram is going to find it extremely difficult to fit this into the shell of an old envelope.
There is a market for the retro look and the old classics. But it is not a large one.

I honestly don't think the buyers care who designed the hull. They do care about it's ride. I think Michael Peters hull would be FAR superior to either Hunt or Napier. As long as the exterior of the boat looks like a very good modern remake of the origional, and it rides great, they'll buy it. Personally, I don't like rocking and rolling in a beam sea, or getting wet on the flybridge!

They have the a picture and a layout of the 35 on their Facebook site . Bertram kept it pretty true to the 31 look, gave it a 12' - 5" beam (narrower than a 35 Cabo), 350 gallons of fuel, raised engine hatches stop at the salon bulkhead, do not go forward into the salon like Cabo. A 3 seater flybridge, overall, the look says 31 all over, will satisfy the purist at heart. .Will wait to see what the price point is, but as stated above, expect north of $500K.

They are also saying 40 knots top at 1/2 load, it will be interesting ride at that speed with the bridge so far forward and a small foredeck. The sensation of speed will definitely be "amplified" a bit on that bridge.

You can now Build Your Bertram on their website. Still the details that you found on their facebook site are not on their website.

Why a center console 35 feet from a premium builder costs more or less 500k so why not a cruiser on the same price point.
The Ocean 37 Billfish is north of 500k (will be the reeal competitor), they where at over hull number 30 last that I know, and that was a few years ago.

The numbers want be in the 1000s as years ago, the Bertram 35 can also have a retro market just as much as the AquaRiva has, which sold over 200 units in few years.
This will not be just about the sportfish guys.

I don't know if there's a market, but I don't see price as the issue either. A 45' Hatteras Express doesn't come cheap, nor does an AquaRiva. I think the bigger issue is convincing people that they need a 35' SF and creating that market.