Bertram 630 Sportfish Sinks?

As with MANY new visitors, I have become quite obsessed with this particular post and conversation. I would like to convey my hopes that the truth comes out answering the ten million dollar question, what really happened? I registered as a Bertram owner, however, I have an open mind, unlike the couple of writers here that clearly just want to bash, and seem to actually thrive on the misfortune of this owner, and the Bertram legend. On that note to the YF owner, I think you have been fair, and by providing this information, however harmful to my resale and investment, your intentions to inform, and seek the truth is commendable, after all, we have a very serious safety issue at hand here. Above and beyond the damage and loss to the boat, I am surprised there has been little talk about how in the heck the Captain and mate ever made it without serious injury or death. My thoughts, (surprising, from a VERY loyal Bertram owner) one of two things happened. The boat came apart like Big Sid's, and at speed further disintegrated, or hopefully, hit the sea buoy, sank due to a much smaller hull or running gear compromise and the gross damage viewed occurred as a result of the movement during the 2 weeks on the bottom. One thing I think will shed a lot of light will be the Captains statement PRIOR to any visual evidence (by divers) of hull/deck damage. If his statements (complete destruction of the fore deck and forward hull sides)confirm the damage the divers found, it didn't happen after the accident. After that,many outside factors discussed herein MAY have contributed to the failure, how the boat was stored, prior damage, striking a small sea buoy etc., but as I regret with all my heart, none of those factors should have had the affect to allow a 63', 4 year old boat to compromise the safety of its occupants. I love my Bertram, but I am very concerned. YF, keep it to the facts, lose the two posters that have NOTHING but idle time and negativity, but when the dust settles, report the truth, it's always the right thing. Hopefully my "offshore built battlewagon" won't be an inland houseboat, but I don't want to hurt or kill my family or friends just because something was covered up.

It would be a mistake to think the dealer made only $1000 on that sale.

There is a good point here that I noticed as well. The captain's stated that the bow "folded in". And that was before the wreck was found... The pictures do tend to back up what we know of the captain's version.

I am anxious to see the video. The theories could change after seeing that..

some interesting videos

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgDvC8l-cZM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYKCEBIJArY&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYyM_j0F_YI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JQWVBau4M0

this one shows the bare hull and fuel tank as a 63 is being built

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EM5TW-RO4fc&feature=related

Certification

Thanks to all who had advice on this.
This is way off topic, but, Henning, your experience with the Loyds Certification reminds me of my P.A.D.I dive cert years ago.
I became a rescue diver years ago and was about to proceed with Master then do the full Instructor course. At around the same time I returned to Australia and a friend of ours, who was AFRAID of the ocean (22 years old) went on a quick course from zero to Intrucor in a matter of about 2 months. She was then allowed to train young and old in some pretty dangerous offshore dives. Luckily she scared herself so much she gave it up. Since then I have seen MANY tourist get a couple of dives in resort swimming pools before being taken out to dive in the ocean. Needless to say I gave up my Instrucor ideas as to me it was now worthless.

Hi,

This has always been referred to as the Pay Another Dollar In Dive Cert it was not even taught in NZ when I went through the system which at the time was CMAS.

Anyone remember the PADI debacle of the 'Dive Disk'.

They printed 100,000 discs to rotate to your dive times, all wrong. They had to shred every one.

I took my PADI in '87 on Pidgeon Beach, Antigua, which K1W1 will know well. with Martha who makes many films for the National Geographic Channel. Best training I've ever had.

What association you certified through doesn't matter for non professional ratings, they all count the same and use industry standard training materials. Scuba is actually a very good example of industry regulating itself. It's who your instructor is and how they run the program that matters. When you start buying professional ratings though, you need to start looking at market share of where you can work that rating. 10 years ago, the answer was PADI, and most likely still is. As a shop owner, you have to think about which organization can do the most for you. Again, 10 years ago, the answer was PADI.

BTW, resort courses are perfectly safe. The reality is, for most people and nearly every beginner, on a single 80 there is only one rule you must follow and that is "Never Hold Your Breath". It's difficult to get bent on 80 cuft of air.

That's not correct. A Lloyd's certificate means that the drawings have been reviewed and construction has been surveyed by a Lloyd's surveyor.
The meaning of the Maltese cross is different. It means that the essential equipment (regarding reliability and safety) and materials on board have been surveyed by Lloyd's at the manufacturer's workshop, materials tested with a surveyor present, etc.
Without a maltese cross notation, the steel can have a manufacturer's certificate combined with f.e. a type approval.
With a maltese cross, the surveyor will have gone to the steel plant to stamp the plates and gone to the lab to witness the strength testing.
Don't overestimate the importance of the maltese cross, unless you have doubts about the materials being used. F.e. in China, I would not build without a Maltese cross. In the Netherlands, it's debatable. It can also be just an additional cost without added safety.

That's correct
A class certification is not a guarantee for safety. It is the bare minimum. For example the fire safety requirements, even with MCA Large Yacht Code, are a joke for yachts below 500 GT. It's up to the owner to decide his standard of safety, and then follow that up with his own surveyor.
That said, there are a zillion important things in yachtbuilding which a class surveyor will never even look at.

Thanks Carl.

To save me wading through 900+ posts - do we know the condition of the bouy?

Here it is: http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/90851-post231.html

Thanks Lars.

I must say that ‘if’ the buoy was involved, I would expect it to have been obliterated, or at least to have received damage comparable to that of the Bertram – taking into account any post impact damage to the boat.

It should probably have been the radar reflector (not the plastic) that caused the damage, but it is hard to imagine when looking at this picture?

The way I understand it, this buoy is relatively light, so it could have been just swung aside in the event of contact, suffering little to no damage. And with what thin fiberglass is there on the outer side of the core, scratched it open with radar deflector, exposing the core and provoking catastrophic failure as it's further torn apart by water.
Purely hypothetical tho. Buoy or no buoy, shouldn't have ended up like that.

I really do not understand why Bertram and MarineMax hadnt handled it.

- Still doesn't say who was responsible for the delivery...

Every survey I get, there is a page or two attached (with the bill), explaining NO liabilites or suits can come if the surveyor missed something.
With out cutting into the hull and testing a glass/core sample, it's a best guess judgement on the surveyor anyway.

reading that press release from the owner is very interesting

I think with the owners confirmation that the boat was surveyed, for him to be given a replacement is very difficult. The surveyor deemed the boat to be good, so I think this only will pretty much be stuck in court for a couple of years, with various composite experts from the parties saying the opposite what the other is saying.
This press release leaves also pretty much open on what happened or not, read hit or buoy or not. Unless the insurance pays him I think the owner will remain without a boat, unless he is not ready to fork out some other million...

Do not see a cause-effect relation here. To the best of my knowlege, having the boat surveyed does not void seller's responsibilities with regard to quality.
Court times will be funny, but then again, it always is.

This is the problem of the yachting industry. There is always that page which defends the builder, surveyor, mechanic, engines, but rarely or if ever the owner....

is there an owner statement yet?

*if* the sale was contingent on delivery to a Fla port for shipping then MM may have a problem..