Bertram 630 Sportfish Sinks?

Enjoy the carnage folks. I'm off this thread.

Cap, stop that. I already spend the post working on your style of twists. And I am not feeling a single bit good about having to do it again. Who and where, exactly, is trying to put people out of work and destroy companies?

So far the only serious amount of misrepresentation in this thread is coming from you. You constantly keep speaking of your fantasies ("lynch mobs", "putting companies out of business" and so on and so on) as of fact.

yep, look at this carefully NYCAP. As I said, I've read the whole thread, and the only person who keeps presenting "his impression" for a fact here is you. Sorry for the tone people, I tried.

EDIT

Carnage, yes. I really apologise for voicing opinions not exactly matching yours.

Yep.

Actually, this fairly obvious idea was stated a while ago in this very thread.

But then again, for some people there are enough information already. And nop, I'm not implying Bertram "is bad and should get out of business". But they do turn out pumpkin boats at least once in a while nowadays

I agree with most of what you say, but I think it needs to be understood that they basically have no other option then to do as they are doing now.

What they are trying to do is to settle this behind the curtains and hope that the wind blows away (and people just calm down waiting forever for NDAed details, NYCAP - style). Frankly, I would probably do the same in their shoes. Doesnt mean I think it's right to sell defective boats. But ironically, unlike what *some people* see in the thread, I do not thik this is death sentence.

I tried my best to explain why from the POV of a company, silence might be the best reaction. There is not much they can say even if they consider the option.

Again, not exactly. For starters, some contracts put a degree of responcibility on a dealer, and in that case they still might get some warranty even if the wharf goes under (but here people need to look at their own contracts). Then, if there is *final death* it's FUBAR, but if the company is reorganised/sold, a new owner is going to have to stand up to some of old warranties simply to preserve the value of a brand he bought. Bottom line, it's obviously no fresh cigars, but not as hopeless either.

I grew up as management in a $30MM/yr family business, and had to shut it down over the course of five years from 16-21 years of age (my age, the company was ~70 years old at the time). I learned early on that silence doesn't help, nor does divulging everything. In order to have an organized wind-down without severe litigation from teamsters and customers, we had to do a really good job of PR. That's part of what drove me into this industry.

Silence is NEVER the best reaction, despite what seems most convenient and least expensive at the moment. That was a hard taught lesson, and one that I've spent my professional career teaching others. Silence has short term cost savings that cost many multiples of those savings in the long run. There is much they could say to bolster their image without publicly announcing culpability. It's all in how the message is released and in what fashion timewise. This has been hamfisted on all fronts, and my suspicion is that the screw-ups have been attorney-driven.

I think we're doing a good job of saying the same thing with different words. Silence is never the best reaction, but good half of the time it is the most natural one. The whole "long run" consideration is, unfortunatelly, not something I came to realistically expect, despite the fact I'd love to.

I've spent a serious part of my career teaching others to look past their own nose with business they run, and the conclusion I come to is very anticlimatic: people do what is in their own interest, not what is supposed to be the interest of someone in their title/position.

What exactly you think they may say?

What could or should they say? Simply that they are taking the possible delamination issue seriously, that they are looking into the boats they've built with intense scrutiny to ensure that their quality is as presented to the buying public, examining all that they can to ensure the floating fleet are unquestionably sound and that current / prospective owners have nothing to worry about from the perspective of hull safety and soundness.

This doesn't lay blame at anyone's doorstep, but makes the company look like the good guys for taking their customers' best interests to heart.

What's to lose?

Questions for the structural experts:
In my experience from destroying fiberglass by offshore racing, This does not look like "impact" damage. To me, it appears to be pulled apart/sheered off as in force from something "pulling" from astern. Even the stainless steel rub rail is sheered off, not impacted. It would be bent.
Your thoughts?

Second question:
Take a look at the sand & in particular, the trenches (or furrows for those who have plowed a garden) which lead forward toward the bow.
In the second picture, see those same trenches in the sand up near the bow?
Now look at the third picture. Look at the sand behind the boat. Untouched.
Stern sheered off, rudder strut ripped to the rear, trenches leading forward...
It's kinda like it was being pulled backward with great force. Someone said they felt that the transom was damaged when the boat impacted the bottom. There is no way the boat was going that fast and if for some reason it did happen this way, the transom would have been there.
In my opinion: fishy, fishy, fishy

personally, i think the transom (first pic) came off when it hit the bottom... if it was ‘pulled’ off there would be stress cracks and splinters running towards the bow of the boat along the gunwhale, there is not. As u said, sheered off. As u can see at the end of the fibreglass (the break), is pointing upwards, to me that means that there was an upwards force generated below the boat… like it hit the bottom (speculation). I read somewhere that the boat was reported as sinking stern down, because the fact is there’s not really a bow to hold any water, it will likely get trapped at the stern (with its deep V). correct if wrong?

Now just before it went under, the force of the water (a f##k load of it), is rushing down to the back of the boat, moving the LCG (longitudinal centre of gravity), and also the CB (but the weight of the boat will obviously overcome it) towards the stern, this will cause massive stress loads on the transom (delaminate it) and likely blow out hatches. So when it’s rushing to the bottom, all 110,000# of it, she will hit with a lot of force. And depending on angel of attack when the boat has hit, could/will/has also increase the load on the transom because the LCG has moved towards the stern, so it just snapped under massive loads basically. Correct if wrong?

The trenches could have been down by the diver taking the pic. If the boat was pulled the deposit of sand would be behind the prop… not in front like in the pic. Correct if wrong?

I’ve broken a lot of skiffs in my time (wrote one completely off, what a mess).

far

Rule nr 1 off boat buying is to use an independent surveyor not linked to the seller or his broker. There would be zero credibility to Bertram paying a surveyor!
If I owned or captained one of these ferretti built hull, I d get/ recommend getting an independent survey.

Hi,

It would only work properly if Bertram agreed to reimburse Owners for the cost of the survey and any work resulting from what was found for Owners who commissioned their own surveys with surveyors of their choice not those recommended by Bertram and they were paid at their normal rate.

That way there should not be any Bertram influence on the outcome although I am betting that there are so many Bertrams that would have to be inspected that surveyors would be doing more than one or two each and may therefore become a little less thorough than those just doing a one off.

cost isnt' an issue... last survey i had done about 2 year ago was $2 a foot for a full hull survey incl. all systmes and sea trial... so for just the hull portion, out of the water, you can get it done for under $1000. Worth the peace of mind... unless something shows up.

That’s why I suggested that the owner gets the surveyor himself, he knows it going to be neutral. And if there’s any faults Bertram can fix the situation out of there pocket, I really doubt every 630 will have a problem. Docked wages, I was going to say your point number 2 (in ways), but it may come across slightly bias towards Bertram. But if there is a way Bertram can at least work with the customers, and make it public that there trying to fix the problem that would be great. Good call though.

They can use the profit margin from the faulty/cheaper core, and put that towards the repairs

And D/W, leaving your Viking and going to a Bertram would be a step back in the hydrodynamic department. Sorry Bert

far

Hi,

It wasn't the cost I was getting at here - It is who pays the Piper.

If the supplier in this case Bertram say "Here ya go, Our Surveyor will take a look and tell you if there is anything you need to be concerned about" there is a good chance that as Bertram would be paying the surveyor that he might not find as much wrong with the boats as someone who is just doing a survey for an Owner to find out what the boat is actually like.

And what size boat was that on?

hi , i tend to agree with CT DAVE . just my 2 cents worth , but if you look at attached photo and notice position of the cleats . someone or something pulled the boat backwards, breaking off the transom . when that effort failed, then tried to pull using the shaft strutt , hence the markings on it .

Who would try pulling it without floating it first though?

who says it was not semi submerged , and the aft cleats were the only means of securing a line , as the front cleats were not there . all is speculation , hopefully we will all discover the "truth" one day .....

Maybe someone was out there in the dead of night and tried to haul the stern up a bit to drag it on the forefoot into shallow water to pick it up or into deep water and lose it forever.

Maybe this is what Elvis Presley is up to these day as he hasn't released a song for a while

I just don't see that massive boat, falling apart the way it did? Something seems wrong to me? It's pulled apart in to many directions, even if there was defective workmanship, how could there possibly be such destruction? There is destruction everywhere you look.

Something doesn't add up here?