Bertram 630 Sportfish Sinks?

Gentlemen, Engineers, Captains and other experts, - as an outside observer, not a structural engineer or such - I just don't see the bow of a boat "Blowing Up" - lousy construction or not - there would be some signs of failure prior if the foredeck was going to launch itself in a 4-5 ft sea. One of my 1st thoughts was that some "force" ripped at the bow, whether it was an object or Anchor Rode - can someone smarter than me please tell us how much force an Anchor rode, not even chain, can supply - obviously one that is sufficient to hold a 110,000 rig! BTW - In my 25 years of running yachts, I hate to count how many times I have seen either no saftey or it not be in use on the ground tackle. I am open to all different scenarios - but it appears other's here are only interested in one cause - construction. And yes, there is a powerball winner everyday -

Teddy you are safer with that 43 egg being hand laid then the fusion process. In theory you arent but in real life boat building you are better off. When you go to the more technical fusion process and vacuum bagging if anypart of the process is not done 100% then expect failures. With fusion you are trying to build a boat with less glass and resin but just as strong as the heavier boat??????With a hand laid boat they are slipping and sweating wetting out glass and trying to get any air out from between the glass and resin. Very old school but stupid proof.Your egg is a battle wagon. I have one that belongs to the boat yard. It was rammed while the family was watching an airshow off atlantic city this summer. The witnesses said the transom folded in 3 ft??? I find it hard to believe? Its still seems in very good structural shape .except the transom door is partially open and wont close. One large crack and a couple small cracks.It looks like a well made boat even without fusion? Fancy $10.00 word. a simple explanation is you lay your glass and core in the hull. cover it all up with a big plastic bag. let resin in one side of hull and suck through the glass and core material til it reaches the other side of hull.now close all openings and pull a vacuum so the plastic squashes everything down tight underneath. let dry and maybe even post cure with manufactured heating source. I think they called it a boat in a box . in the earlly days. Stick with hand laid unless you work at NASA

I'm amused too.

I guess you have never heard of prepreg, and I am not talking about "shotgun weddings."


http://www.advanced-composites.co.uk/PSG_Electronic_Files/Marine_PSG_Files/marine_index.html

It can, but what it is about is getting all the air out and getting better wetting.

What if this boat had an aft anchor that released? This could probably remove the transom and make the boat dive and as already structually damaged the bow came off and also touched the running gear before all of it sank...

Whatever, but the buoy...

I'm not aware of any prepregs that are not epoxies. All the prepregs I've worked with have been carbon fiber and all have required an autoclave for curing.

I'm going with an alien abduction gone horribly awry. It is perfectly obvious the tractor beam was not calibrated properly for a composite vessel.

Hey, it's as good as some of the scenarios I've read.

Judging by those pictures of the transom shots, it doesn't look to me like the core absorbed the resin. It's a much lighter color then the resin and doesn't look like the resin touched it......which sounds to me like they mixed too much hardener and the resin set up before impregnating the core......

Thanks for your reply Bly, you call my 2004 43 Egg and battlewagon, yet her sides are still cored, although hand laid??

One thing that dissapoints me as a potential customer in view of all speculation not another single word from Bertram.

Once the images came into the public domain, there was no longer a need to keep telling stories. The only outcomes of continued comments would be potentially damaging. Marine Max and Ferretti/Bertram need to make this right.
There were construction problems as well as damage under the care and custody of Marine Max.

There is no general feeling that cores are all bad. I would recommend not coring the underwater part of the hull.Atleast on big boats that stay in the water mostly. But hull sides if done properly with out the use of fusion process. If they put plenty of glass and resin on the sides and just use the core in flat areas to stop needles flex. Its when they use the core and a very light and controlled amount of glass and resin to all combine and hold the boat together. Thats when you have cored sides colapsing. I have never seen an old school cored hull side delaminate. I have seen some balsa coring get wet from not being sealed properly and was repairable somewhat easy. There was plenty of glass and resin to hold the boat together even without the core.That is the way your boat was built most likely.I live near the factory, have been inside many times when walt johnson of J&T diesel owned it.

Good question! - 1" rope has a breaking strength of 29,400lb! 3/4" chain 39,000 lb. Just some additional points here - 1) we all know of boats having anchors deployed underway - this would not be 1st time - But it would be the 1st time a boat has just blown it's fore deck off for no apparent reason. OK so we have 3rd dismissal by the cognoscenti - 1st - no way he ran over buoy, 2nd no way bouy can damage boat, 3rd Rope would burst if it deployed and grabbed - now it's down to mentioning aliens - we all want the answer - some just want the real answer, ma'am

What were those documented construction problems on this boat and when did what damage occur at Marine Max?

My rule of thumb has always been, no core on the bottom and no core on the hull sides till you're at least 6" above the water line. Secondly, look at the way the biax materials on the boat failed, I ALWAYS STAY AWAY FROM BIAX!

The thing with cored boats, and I've run a lot of the various manufacturers models before coring and later ones that were cored. Yes, the cored boats are faster on a flat or near flat surface. But, even when it starts to kick up a little 2-4' or 3-5' you have to really pull the throttles back on the cored boats or it sounds and feels bad. Whereas the ones with solid glass hulls you can run at cruise in a lot worse sea, and the boat doesn't feel a thing nor do you.

If I had to pick a material for a fast/strong/lightweight sportfish it would be cold molded without a doubt. I also wonder how these cored hulls will fare when they get 30 years old. Searay got away from cored hulls real quick in the 90's after they had many problems with them.

The other question is, how many other suspect Bertrams are around. I hear quality control has been non-existant at the factory for a long time.......I don't know about lately.......

The construction problem is the multiple points of delamination evidenced clearly in the pictures, but even as such, would have required previous damage to result in that failure. Notice that the port side came apart right about the same height that it would hit a dock at. I've fixed other boats with a line of shatter cracks right there from a hard docking that barely left a scuff and scratch on the outside. If that boats been around since 06, I'm sure it's been run around to some shows.

Ah, yet another self-proclaimed "expert".

Of course I'm well aware of prepregs but there is the still human element. Prepregs have a finite shelf life, so if a worker doesn't pay attention to the expire date, you'll have a problem. Same goes with storing the prepregs at a chilled temperature...one refrigeration failure and there's going to be problems unless someone is paying attention.

Having brought up prepregs, I'm sure you're well aware of the issues caused by prepregs manufactured using the aqueous slurry process if there are human errors.

I won't even go into the human errors that can be caused during the thermoset process by applying too little heat, too much heat, or by forcing the tack point.

All of this is why Boeing uses machines to lay-up the epoxy/carbon prepregs for their 777 tails. They are eliminating the human factor but this isn't the case with yacht builders.

Sorry, Marmot, prepreg is just as sensitive to human and material issues as any other FRP process.

Teddy1,
more than happy to help, it sounds like there making a good boat at Egg Harbor factory. i also think the more the owner knows about his/her boat and other boats (in most aspects), the better off they are in choosing a boat in the future. cheers

far

Capt J, great advise on the cold molded technic, a few of the custom SF are still using this method. Cheers

far