Bertram 630 Sportfish Sinks?

Just joined. Looks like a good website.

The top of that buoy is PVC pipe, and the radar reflector is aluminum. Can anyone, I mean anyone, please explain to me if this buoy caused this boat to sink, how there is no damage to the mast or reflector. Even an unlikely explanation? I just don't see any way at all. All I keep reading are ways that the buoy could have caused the boat to sink. These seem a little far-fetched, but possible. But how did it do it without considerable damage?

Welcome. Please understand that there have been tremendous technological advances in PVC and aluminum materials over the last decade. Bertram/Ferretti is currently investigating building the next 63 out of the same materials that this buoy is made of.


Guys, there's nothing wrong with cored construction, ABSOLUTELY (no pun intended) NOTHING WRONG WITH CORED CONSTRUCTION! A properly cored hull side using quality core materials (IE core cell), vacuum bagged, using correct core bedding materials and procedures with the proper vinylester resins (or epoxy) is as strong if not stronger than solid glass. While I would never core a hull below the water line, I would certainly (and have) build a cored hull above the water line.

As I've said before, the problem here is the cheap inferior core used by bertram as well as a highly UNSKILLED subcontractor doing the lamination.

The answer is obvious. If Bertram could present doubt, then they have a defense. The boat didn't hit a buoy. It hit a wave and suffered a catostrophic hull failure, just like another Bertram did last year. The fact that the transom fell off under torsional stress is further proof these boats are not built well anymore.

Yes as you say Boeing has the FAA and NTSB and still they have lost planes and many lives in the process and regretfully accidents and structural issues will still happen and lives will be lost. As for the car, loosing your drivetrain, at 120 plus mph...well is not as simple as pulling on the side of the road (more likely than not they will peel you out from the side of the road).

Every boat manufacturer has issues, Bertram, regretfully for them has some high profile incidents happened to them. It is not like all of their boats have issues. They have built hundreds of boats under Ferreti succesfully without a problem and not all of their boats are falling apart. This are isolated problems. This is the kind of problem a thorough and I mean thorough very expensive class society proffessional survey can detect. If you are penny pinching when you are buying a multimillion dollar boat you have no buss. owning one.

As in life all is a matter of luck, chances and fate. You hope the builder, the air line, the pilot the faa and ntsb as you say all did their job when you board the plane. You would hope Ferrari did their job when you are cruising around at over 120 plus mph (and yes that is the whole point of owning a car like that apart from staring at it and buffing it with a cloth). And so after surveying and purchasing your boat you would hope your boat does not come apart after striking a bouy while been piloted by an incompetent Master several miles offshore.

Can you suggest any brand then I should look into?

Pascal, do you have any other photos of destruction from Hurricane Wilma at Dinner Key?

there wasn't a lot of destruction, this Ferreti, a 90' MY and a bert. SF that both sank. all 3 where on the T dock, pier 3 and 4, the most open to the bay and the easterly winds. Everybody did well, except for a few biminis and minor rub rail damage here and there.

i have some pictures, incl. some i took during the storm (I stayed on my boat). i'll post them in another thread when i ahve a chance...

about coring, agree... it's as strong as solid hulls if properly done. The problem is that it's impossible to know if it was done well. Sea ray had a lot of coring issues over the years, but you'd expevt Bertram to get it right, appraently not

Of course it does, as in the equation it is part of A. Force will take the path of least resistance. The bouyancy of the bouy should be less resistant than the foredeck tearing off the boat so the force will sink the bouy. A 2x4 will go through a wall in a hurricane because the standing resistance of the wall is greater than the impact force required to breech the cinderblocks or whatever. If the wall is balanced on a hinge, the wall would fall over rather than being penetrated. Either way though, the 2x4 will also show signs of the impact because it will see the exact same force applied to it as the cinderblock, it is just ultimately stronger so it will prevail but still look like a pitbull used it as a chew toy.

The bouy being forced under would be a deduction from the "A" in the equation because it is going in a direction opposite to that of the destructive vector.

The 54 that's visible behind the ferretti is owned by my friend (boat is named ELY), the beating that boat took was amazing. Ultimately what sunk the boat was a piling piercing the bow and coming through the deck, once the boat was holed there was no saving her from sinking and getting further damaged. Even though a piling punched a hole through the cored areas of the deck there still wasn't a single bit of delamination in those areas, not to mention considering the beating the boat took, there wasn't a single bit of bulkhead tabbing ANYWHERE that had come loose.

Once again, I wouldn't put 100% of the blame on ferretti group for the delamination issues with bertram, as I've mentioned before the blame lies with the core manufacturer and the subcontractor who did the lamination. Ultimately though the majority of the blame lies at the feet of ferretti for not having proper quality control measure in place for their raw materials as well as their finished products.

Really, no problems with any Ferretti?

Perhaps true if they need a defense when the time comes. At this time it does appear they will want a solid defense, but again that is speculation that the sinking was somehow Bertram's fault.

This is speculation as the true cause is still unknown. Your statement reads as if you are calling it a fact as to the events that led to the sinking.

Exactly the issue. The legal principle of Respondeat Superior says that the liability goes to the top. If the core can be found to be defective, then they can go back on the core manufacturer, but for their product, the boat, they are responsible for choosing the materials and the labor.

You have neglected time. I can slowly push a 1000 ton vessel off the dock by leaning on it. I would shatter my fist if I struck it.

At 25 knots (42 fps) just how long do you think it took to inflict the damage to the bow illustrated in those photos, and how far do you think that buoy would have moved in the same time?

Your comparison with a wind borne 2X4 is specious. The boat was not found with a buoy shaped hole in the bow, and the 2X4 did not destroy the wall.

The boat being discussed suffered a large force over a large area over an extended (in this context) period of time. The deceleration was rapid but not enough to injure the occupants.

Just for grins and to illustrate how much energy can be absorbed by a composite structure loaded over a small area, ponder this:

Great comparison, the boat pictured is/was a fountain, hardly a well built boat. . That should be the end of the discussion right there. To further claim that the buoy did the damage is really truly idiotic.

CapJ, that's not what happened. Hull #1 had the engine take the stringers with it. I have pictures of many more large ferretti bertrams falling apart not to mention the mess they had with the 360 line.

that doesn’t work.... that beacon is solid, not moving for anyone, agree? If that buoy was the same, static, not moving, in the ground 10 feet, it would have the same effect as that beacon, it will ‘slice’ up the boat as well, but also show damage to the reflector …. But it doesn’t…
test a) get a alloy pole 38mm and stand it up under its own weight…. Now punch it… it will fall over from the force applied to it, agree? Test b) Now get the same pole and cement it in a few feet, and punch it…. You’ll be off to the doctors. That buoy is ‘test a’, but correct me if I’m wrong, better be a good equation if i am wrong?

That 630 at that weight and speed should (if it did) bowled that buoy over with damage to its lower parts of the hull…

Also this is not a bash on Bertram, it’s a bash on the technology used. Unfortunately Bertram just happens to have there name on it.

far

Far, there's nothing wrong with the technology, in this case it's execution and the poor quality materials that's to blame. I stictly use corecell and vinylester resin on my builds with the core vacum bagged (not as many production builders as you may think actuall bag the core). I've never had this kind of failure nor do I know of any where quality materials and proper workmanship were used.

Do you think if you dropped one end of that buoy (or a 200 lb plastic tube full of sand) from about 35 feet onto the bow of that Bertram it would damage the boat in the manner illustrated and show no sign of damage itself?