Batteries and New Battery Technologies

Sorry, more off topic ... My point was contingent on the rise of diesel, not the fall of steam. I know that steam has lots of great applications. However I was focusing on the adoption of new technologies, not the death of old technologies. Hence you missed my point.

Back on topic.

Highlander it depends on the batteries you have now. If you have lead acid batteries then you could change them out today for Lithium Ion batteries and get the same capacity in 1/4 the space and weight.

Great, what would six 100 Ah Lithium Ion batteries cost me?

At what voltage? If its 600 Ah at 24 V its very different than 600 Ah at 3.7V. Its a great way to compare two AA batteries you are thinking of putting in your camera, but a lousy way to compare types of battery.

Looking around (wikipedia) it seems that Li-Ion batteries run 3-4X the price of Lead acid per kwh. I don't know where to source large bulk batteries so I can't get you a solid price. Li-ion batteries easily last 2-3 times as many cycles as Lead-acid's, so the battery end will over the life of the system even out to 1-2 times the price of a lead-acid bank.

Edit: Lithium Ion prices have been falling, Lead-acid is an old technology and has had lots of time to fall to the easiest manufacturing techniques, Lithium is still having huge discoveries made every 2-3 months. I wouldn't be surprised if we see exponential price fall over the next few years, as we have in the past few years.

Prices are dropping but a commonly used cost figure is $90 Ah.

Worth it?

In the boats where weight savings can be an issue, it is 12 volt batteries. Usually between 75 and 110 Ah and costing around 100 to 200 USD.

I always thought that before the auto execs were allowed to utter a single word before Congress they should have had to sit and watch that movie while the networks held cameras on them.

One can only wonder what those people would have said to defend their actions in respect to the electric vehicle program.

Are we talking 54.000 USD for six batteries? Well, they would have to drop a lot before I buy them...

The price of batteries is dictated in the number and size of the cells, and the Ah level is dictated by the numbers of cells in the circuit being wired in parallel and series. Wh is dictated by the number and size of the cells.

As for WKTEC I agree with the sentiment, but I really have a hard time believing that they accurately depicted the maintenance, which I think is a big part of the story.

The question was if I and Highlander can make a saving on your battery recommendations?

It depends on various factors not listed. Incidentally I just crunched some numbers, and my Laptop battery (11.1 V, not 12) cost $27.75 per Ah

Recently my 12 v 100 Ah car battery died after 14 years and last week my camera Li-ion battery 7,4 v 720 mAh died after one year. The replacement cost is exactly the same. I doubt we will see Li-ion batteries replacing lead batteries in cars or boats anytime soon...

You don't think the fact that it was a much smaller battery for a camera had anything to do with the higher price?

Nope, I think it was because it was a Li-ion battery. A normal Nickel Cadmium battery would cost a fraction...

My boat has 6 Life Line AGM batteries at 250 bucks each. That's bad enough.

The pricing thing does hinge on the size of the unit and the volume. If Li batteries are mass produced for cars, we should see some trickle down in the form of cost effective battery choices.

To give you an idea- a few weeks ago faced with a generator suffering from corrosion in the cooling shell (Fisher Panda) and two shorted windings. I chose to replace the entire unit with the next SMALLER one. Saving 120 pounds and a few bucks. The new one is also fresh water cooled throughout, a no-brainer. What were they thinking ten years ago?

The battery bank weighs much more than the genny but we are a ways off from a good dollars per pound trade off. The batteries weigh about 100 pounds each. Saving 300 lbs would be huge.

I have even thought about putting in a water maker so that I can run with minimum levels in the tanks. The boat runs and feels better light.
By the way, it's a Little Harbor Whisperjet 40 and loading has a big impact on performance. At half load she'll do 30 kts at 3000 rpm, at full load it's more like 26 kts along with higher fuel burn.

Getting back to the batteries. Even for cars there are studies that show that the size of the battery bank must be sized to the typical commute or the economy goes out the window. Modular units for custom sizing make a lot of sense for a full electric.

My daily drive is less than 15 miles, whats the point of having a 100 mile range? Ultra capacitors would be a good choice for a short range vehicle.

Final Exam in the Morning!

Don't you have an exam to study for or something?

Ahh, laddie, you don't really have a point to make. Your statement "hence you run a diesel boat today" is a good illustration. First off, you have no idea what kind of boats I work on - the majority of them over the past 20 years have been steam powered. If you knew anything about the marine industry and marine engineering you wouldn't have made such a sophomoric statement and would hopefully spend more time considering the content of your posts rather than the frequency.

There are many factors which drive the selection of a propulsion system on a vessel and fuel efficiency alone is not the bottom line. Just because a budding technology comes along that has great promise in some applications and attracts a great deal of publicity doesn't mean that it will revolutionize marine propulsion.

It should be obvious to most readers that the abundance of buzz-words and the dearth of real technical information that comprise the majority of the bleeding edge projects Brian has presented are the products of marketers and futurists. Elements of these projects may find a place in the industry but those who believe they are viewing the future might remind themselves they didn't commute to work in a flying car or even an air car. Few of their neighbors have a helicopter in the garage and nuclear power is not too cheap to meter. A strong dose of skepticism is not to be confused with naysaying or inability to adapt.

Interesting article, Problem is that they have not shown the theroretical improvement in an actual ultracapacitor. The biggest advantage is the ability to use all the power that the device can store without any penalty.
Someday I can see plug in hybrids where the engine side is just a get home back up. Big enough to run at say 40 mph. the car would be "electric with a fall back plan".

I'm not sure where this fits in since this and the other similar thread(s) have morphed so much but here's a good picture to illustrate the size of solar array required to equal a Cat 3512 propulsion engine. It would be an odd looking boat to haul this lot around.