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Air-Electric Drive System

Discussion in 'Technical Discussion' started by TRY, Oct 23, 2006.

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  1. TRY, Nov 2, 2006
    #21
    TRY

    TRY Senior Member

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    Marine drive system

    Boating applications will be done separately, with the help and assistance of the same engineering team.

    Two separate systems are under evaluation:
    - air engines as direct drive units
    - air genset with electric motors
    both to be implemented at first in a catamaran because less power is needed (and because a cat is the best boat anyway!)
  2. TRY, Nov 13, 2006
    #22
    TRY

    TRY Senior Member

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    Update Nov 13th

    Calculations, models and trials have provided us with a more precise idea of "fuel" consumption in the case of a "dual-energy" engine:
    A 40hp engine would need approx 1 liter of fuel (any fuel that is) for its external and permanent "air-heating" system.
    In this configuration air is taken in from the athmosphere, compressed (via the compressor part of the pistons), heated (to obtain more volume = more energy), drives the engine side of the piston.

    For a twin-engine installation 2 liters of fuel / hour will provide propulsion.
    Not bad in times where the barrel of any fuel is rising without forseeable ceiling! ;)
  3. wdrzal, Nov 14, 2006
    #23
    wdrzal

    wdrzal Senior Member

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    Taken from air engine:

    "We have never claimed that the thermodynamic graphs of our engines would be adiabatic (nor are they isothermic). Mileage presents no problem - the volume and pressure of air in the car can be increased considerably. (by changing the tank size or the air pressure). The data published at this link, should help to re-establish the truth and give definitive information on these two points."

    first law of thermodynamics says:

    Energy can neither be created or destroyed, heat and mechanical energy are mutually convertible.

    second law: entropy tends to rise over time.

    It seems they are just storing energy for other uses.but since you can not create energy ,the best you can do is make a more efficient engine.

    I don't have time right now to review entire engine right now but ,it may be more efficient,but not by 75% fuel consumption in my opinion just to take a wild guess, I will always take a good look at new technology ,but it has to follow thermodynamic laws. no exceptions.


    The Laws of Thermodynamics say:

    Zeroth Law: "You must play the game."
    First Law: "You can't win."
    Second Law: "You can't break even."
    Third Law: "You can't quit the game."

    Do you wanna Play Thermodynamics ???????? I forgot "you must" :D
  4. TRY, Nov 16, 2006
    #24
    TRY

    TRY Senior Member

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    Great laws!

    But a bit of a changed world now, due to lateral thinking, not from me but by the engineers of this mechanical miracle. Using exisiting and well-known mechanical parts a new "whole" has been created, thereby changing the existing laws of mechanics and thermodynamics for good (and for the better). After more than a hundred years of detailed development it was time for a radical overhaul of the good old combustion engine.

    Just be a little patient and something nice will happen to the motorized world.
  5. TRY, Dec 3, 2006
    #25
    TRY

    TRY Senior Member

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    A partner please!

    After a detailed visit to the Lagoon 420 hybrid sailing catamaran (diesel genset + 2 electric propulsion motors) I'm more than ever convinced that our solution is superior by far!

    I don't know if there's any catamaran builder out there on the Yachtforums, but if there is I'm interested to discuss a cooperation to launch our air-electric package.
    Ideal would be a cat with a 2 x 25 kw power requirement.

    Please contact me openly in this thread or private if you want to keep it discreet!
  6. Talon, Dec 9, 2006
    #26
    Talon

    Talon Senior Member

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    Heating up the air tanks, can this be achieved by routing the genset/engine exhausts into heat exchanger coils around the tanks.
    If you can get enough of the excess latent heat stored in a thermal 'Induction' coil around the tanks, there should be enough heat to boost pressure, even when the gensets aren't running.
    (After the gensets/engines have been run previously)

    Good luck with what you are doing.


    Jay
  7. TRY, Dec 10, 2006
    #27
    TRY

    TRY Senior Member

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    Many thanks for your interest, Talon! Together with some 600'ish clicks on this thread it comforts me that the online community shows a clear belief in "alternative" propulsion systems for boats and yachts, amongst other applications!
    Many thanks to all, once again!

    Now, as to your suggestion, that doesn't work here, since our engine doesn't produce "heat" in the exhaust.
    We do not have a "combustion" but a simple "expansion" of compressed air and that produces "cold"!

    Therefore we need an external, continuous "burner" to heat the air (at 30 bars) before it enters the expansion chamber.
    The consumption of this external burner is extremely low (1.0 - 1.5 liters per hour), it uses any fuel, and the temperature of the "heater" is tuned in such a way that no toxic gases (or infinitimal quantities) are produced in the process.

    Is this all clear? If not, just ask!
  8. K1W1, Dec 10, 2006
    #28
    K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    You have stated in several posts here about the low consumption of any type of fuel.

    There quite a range of things that can be considered Fuel

    Would you care to enlighten myself and the other readers as to the probable identity of your ideal fuel?
  9. TRY, Dec 10, 2006
    #29
    TRY

    TRY Senior Member

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    Well I'll list all fuels I know, but I suppose there's many others:
    - gasoline
    - natural gas
    - methane
    - diesel
    - bio-diesel
    - light oil (vegetal or animal oils)
    - ................
    - ..............
    and so on, anything that burns and produces heat so to say!
  10. K1W1, Dec 10, 2006
    #30
    K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    Thanks for the reply.

    The storage handling and safety issues of each of these fuels is very different.

    You make a calim about how this is suitable for yachts, there needs to be a universal relatively safe fuel that can be obtained at any dock worldlwide for this idea to really be a runner.

    The Calorific values of the fuels you mention vary so much that to say 1 to 1.5 lt an hour would do is simply ludicrous.


    This is a good forum with many people with far more education than me, as a well qualified and experienced Marine professional I simply find some of your claims just unworkable mathematically. Maths is the only truly universal language so there can be nothing lost in translation.

    I know that Carl removed my first post ( he is welcome to do the same to this if he feels the same way)on this subject where you felt I was being too hard and or critical of your claims, based upon what you posted to that point I was only questioning what you had posted which was pretty far fetched in anyone's book.

    TFrom what I understand the rest of what you have posted is not referring to your personal work simply the work of the guys in Aix en Provence.
  11. Jcam, Dec 10, 2006
    #31
    Jcam

    Jcam New Member

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    Old Chinese Proverb

    I'm not an engineer, but I've been following this post (and will continue to). My only words to readers of this thread: "Never tell he who is doing it that it can't be done."
    Good luck on your endeveour Try, innovation (for the most part) is a good thing.
  12. TSI AV, Dec 11, 2006
    #32
    TSI AV

    TSI AV Senior Member

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    My dreams came true ...

    Hi,

    TRY, You heel my wounds ... :rolleyes:

    Year 2002. That time I was at sea. I sailed on a commercial ship and found one dutch magazine, (probably "Panorama") and there was an article abt compressed-air-driven-car, developed in France.

    With one air charge that car could make 500-600 km.

    Is it, what You meant / developed ?

    I was so sticked with that idea, that started to draw / build my own "air-engine".

    I used 1 empty vessel (30 bars allowed), 1 very old 2 cyl. gas engine, 1 air reducer...

    Well, that thing worked. Of course, not efficently as I wanted, but it worked.

    I'm not sure, how You transfer air pressure into rotating movement (I think - reciprocationaly), but :

    1. with a good timing of inlet / outlet valves (probably - electronic timing could be considered),
    2. with a very good lubrication of parts,
    3. may be double expansion should be considered ? ;)
    4. and may be some parts need to be warmed up ?

    this engine will have efficiency.

    But, "efficient" means what it means.

    Compressed air has to be produced.
    By compressors.
    And here is the point ! ...
    If we going to use ENVIROMENTALY FRIENDLY ELECTRICITY (to drive compressors), then, congradulations, we will have a clean engine ...

    So, I doubt in very high efficiency, but, because of enviroment, this concept is great.
    It is more safe, more simple than hydro-engines.

    I'm not sure, who will strive to buy patents...
    Oh, yes, still same names (as usual) :mad: ...: B*, SHE**, TEXA**, AGI*, TOTA*, STATO**, ... :D
    There is a problem, not engines.

    TRY, I will support this concept as much as I can.
    Will be happy to help / support / develop / calculate / mount / pack / weld / cut / carry / check / etc.:)
    Please, contact me, if necessary.

    Kind regards and respects,

    Andrei
  13. TRY, Dec 12, 2006
    #33
    TRY

    TRY Senior Member

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    Many thanks!

    First of all to K1W1:
    Be it positive or dubitative, your interest is a moral support!
    As a shareholder and pro-active in marketing this exciting technology, I feel I can say "we" when discussing the progress of "our" development.

    Then to Jcam:
    You are oh so right! Never tell the guy who's doing it, that it can't be done! He will only double his efforts, which we are doing constantly.
    we're almost there, 5%-ish to accomplish some fine-tuning and we'll go global.

    Finally (I've taken my replies in chronological order) to TSI AV:
    Good! You've seen the information, you've tried it yourself, you know it works!
    We've improved the efficiency very much with some very clever mechanical solutions (piston stops at top end, dual pistons on the same rod, etc).
    Since we're a fully privately owned company, nobody can buy our patents, since they're not for sale.
    We simply propose options-to-licence, of which some 46 are signed till now, worldwide.

    As always, further questions will be answered.
    Thanks again!
  14. TSI AV, Dec 12, 2006
    #34
    TSI AV

    TSI AV Senior Member

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    Patents

    TRY,

    Interesting, how all this can be patented ?

    Generally, this is 2 (may be 3) stage compressor, working opposite way...

    Ok, ok, ok, + electronic timing of valves, TDC "delay", damping / increasing of air pulsations, electronic air distributor(s), probably even pistons of a dual action of different diameters...

    The world is familiar with these things already.
    Very interesting, WHAT was patented ?

    P.S. Have You ever heard abt Mr. S. Balandin ?
    That guy invented reciprocating engine without connecting rod...

    Well, THAT thing is patented... http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6631671.html
    Friction forces are very low compare to standard conrod solution.

    Have You tried to use his kinematic schema within Your application?

    P.P.S. Please, double Your efforts, oil-madness has to be stopped some day... :D

    Rgds,

    Andrei
  15. brian eiland, Dec 18, 2006
    #35
    brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

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    Revetec Engine

    Here's another very interesting engine without connecting rods. And this one is far beyond the patent stage.

    Revetec Engine
    http://home.iprimus.com.au/stevewest/feature/Piston%20Broker.html

    http://www.revetec.com/
  16. TRY, Dec 22, 2006
    #36
    TRY

    TRY Senior Member

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    Merry Christmas!

    To all the followers of this thread I wish a very Merry Christmas and a Happy - Prosperous and Healthy 2007!
    During the festive period I will prepare some photographs to underline the progress of this exciting project.
    In a not too far future we'll undertake to cross the Atlantic on air, pure air!
  17. TRY, Jan 9, 2007
    #37
    TRY

    TRY Senior Member

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    Photographs

    As promised before the "quiet period" I post some (very bad quality) photos of the air-genset we use for further development and demos.
    It develops approx 6kva for 0.6 x 0.6 x 0.4 meters and some 60 kgs.

    More detailed specs will be posted later today (or tomorrow).

    Attached Files:

  18. TRY, Jan 10, 2007
    #38
    TRY

    TRY Senior Member

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    Some specs

    The specs relate to the genset configuration as shown with photographs yesterday.

    The engine part is a flat twin of 600cm3.
    2 or 3 engines can be connected mechanically to increase volume and power output.
    Therefore the flat-four version can be extended to flat-8 or flat-12.

    Materials up to now are alloy, but lots of plastic parts will be used in series-production.

    The electric part (inhouse developed) delivers 6kva, 220VAV.

    Dimensions and weight were specified yesterday (without the noise-reducing casing).

    Use in a martime environment does NOT require any specific modification (since no ancillary equipment is needed to make the engine run).
    What you see on the photos is all it takes, no extra bits and pieces.

    Oil can be any (rather fluid) oil since no heating occurs, rather the opposite, hence the need for a fluid oil.
    These can be vegetal, animal, fossile oils, whatever.
    Due to absence of heating (never more than 40°C was measured) lifetime of oil is much longer than in any conventional engine.

    Power (compressed air) is stored in tanks at 300 bars, engine runs on 30 bars.

    Applications for the genset can be emergency, power generation(and zero-pollution storage), power supply, etc.
    Weight and zero-pollution are major advantages here (you can literally install this thing in a surgical theatre, or on top of an elevator).

    Applications for the engine are same as for any other engine, less weight (so less costly to produce), zero-pollution, free AC (from the O°C exhaust), etc.

    If you want to know more: get a message to me, take a flight to this area and I'll show you!
    We're now signing licences to manufacture and market for specific geographic areas.

    END OF STORY!
  19. K1W1, Jan 10, 2007
    #39
    K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    Thank you for your appraisal of my comments earlier in the thread.

    From your post above:

    "Power (compressed air) is stored in tanks at 300 bars"

    How is this "Power" initially produced and how is it subsequently rejuvenated especially whilst this proposed vessel is underway?
  20. TRY, Jan 11, 2007
    #40
    TRY

    TRY Senior Member

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    Power comes from the mains, any 16A socket will do.
    Any "engine" driven apparatus needs filling up, otherwise it is called a perpetuum mobile.
    Normally you fill up at the pump, not when underway.

    However, as outlined in one of my earlier replies the range or endurance of the fuel-quantity can be seriously extended by using an external air-heater.

    Does that answer your question?
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