800 lbs. Gorillas

Obviously, the 10-12' seas in the Searay WERE a head sea..... and it faired extremely well actually......We were able to maintain 12-13 knots

Good evening everyone,
As I peruse the genteel offerings of this thread I thank the stars we're not dealing with 900 pound gorillas. Those babies are REALLY nasty!!!!!!
Peter

If you cant post to the matter, please just stop. The problem with discussions like this is that by posters like Marmot and those who reply to him, the whole forum looses. I stop reading the Yogi and the Gorilla thread. If this spreads to other threads aswell, I'll stop reading yachtforums.

I simply feel bothered...

If you would be so kind as to describe exactly what you understand to be the matter under discussion it might help you feel better and perhaps help explain to me precisely which comments I have made that are so off the matter that you are disturbed.

The Yogi thread was very pointedly on topic about the possible reasons behind the underlying causes of the sinking. It should be pretty clear where the thread was hijacked by a couple of people who quite obviously have no concept of the operation of that type of vessel. Ask them why they felt it necessary to do so, don't blame me for it.

As far as this thread, read the posts, it is solely an attempt to defame a pair of forum members who have little patience with those who act like the ones who trashed the Yogi thread. Read the response to a request to illustrate a "personal attack." Read the description of a "personal attack."

There are a few here who simply can't abide a differing opinion and probably consider a weather report a "personal attack." I think a few, and your comments indicate you may be one of them, need to grow up and quit whining when I or someone else calls a fool a fool and ridicules the ridiculous.

If you can't handle criticism them maybe you should read children's stories instead of discussions about controversial events. Posting a passive agressive threat to leave is as absurd as your reasons for doing so. If you want discussions to focus on the "matter" then it is up to you to do just that. Do you have anything to contribute to the "matter" other than a whine and a ridiculous threat?

I think there are good ways to get any message across without insulting others. Then there are other ways criticizing someone else, and that is never good. I have seen a great number of threads get off topic by various members, sometimes even by myself, and I agree that nobody benefits and the forum as a whole loses. The sign of a great leader is one that always inspires others even at the same time of teaching them a better way to do something. I think that part of it is the cultural differences from all of the members here, sometimes it's a simple misunderstanding or language barrier. And, other times I've seen a few certain members who tend to have a brash reply many times, or come off as condescending or criticize others.......

Don't know why, but this vid reminded me of Carl.

Choke Slam - YouTube

I would be watching this with popcorn and laughing but then I realized it's more sad than humorous. So, I'm going to just insert one comment that has absolutely nothing to do with any of the technical issues being debated.

One of the problems of the internet, whether it's chat or forums is that we sometimes tend to converse on it far differently than we would in person. I read with great interest the high praise of a couple of members here from someone who has met them in person, giving a much different picture than sometimes comes across on the forum. Now, I have a feeling the same applies to most of the others here, especially those getting personal and combative. Perhaps we would all be better served if we approached others online more like we would talk to them in person, in a group setting. I think if we did then we would be far more respectful. We would find ways to disagree and not insult. And when we used humor, of course, it would be more apparent from our expressions.

This is a social setting focused on particular topics, but we should attempt to be friends or when that isn't possible at least tolerant. Those here come from very different backgrounds with different levels of experience. That doesn't mean any of them don't have the right to their opinions. However, they also have to accept disagreement and correction. So in addition to the need for more respect being shown, we might also need thinner skins in some instances. Think, if your good friend was saying those things to you, would you react with venom. Probably not.

I personally try to treat each person here as I would if sitting with them. If I say something offensive, I apologize, and try to make my point in a different way. If I'm wrong on something, then so be it. Not the first time I've ever been wrong, but if it's providing information that is incorrect, it does need to be corrected. I also have long recognized that you never lift yourself up by putting someone else down, you just drag yourself down too.

This post isn't aimed at anyone specifically nor at simply this thread because I can point to at least one more in the last few days that got far more out of control. It's just something I'd suggest thinking about.

A fight like this goes on and New York isn't in the middle of it?

I just had to jump in on one thing here:

K1W1 once called me. Between his accent and my bad hearing I couldn't understand a word being said. I consider that my loss. You could knock me over with a feather after your Marmot comment however. Marmot, you really need to bring that personality here. You definitely leave it on the floor when you sit in front of the keyboard, and I think you'd make a far better teacher if you didn't.

That said, I've been dealing with these guys for a few years now, and the one thing I want to tell everyone is this: If you want to argue technical issues about yachts, these are the wrong two guys. Never have I run across more knowledgable people in this field.

Now you can take that from it's source, I'm just a small boat captain who plays in a small pond, but do so at your own peril. It's not smart to try and show how smart you are in front of minds like these. I've seen them rip to shreds some posers who deserved it. K1W1 I must say though generally aims at targets that deserve it. He seems to understand that most people don't know as much as he knows and are coming here to learn more.

REALLY?????
****ed Marmot, bring it here please. If you could convey your knowledge without pi--ing people off with sarcasm it'd be so much more productive. Simply accept that most people don't know what you know and try to help them. We're here to help the people in the industry, not to prove how smart we are.

This post isn't aimed at anyone specifically nor at simply this thread because I can point to at least one more in the last few days that got far more out of control. It's just something I'd suggest thinking about.

Oldboater

This is an older thread, but I sit on the sidelines of this forum for the most part to learn from some very good people here, but I agree with you, whole heartily, that this is a very combative forum and probably chases folks who have an innocent but simple questions. The anonymous communications platforms of today are a big contributor to that. Years ago, you got a punch in the nose

I didn't realize how old it was at first as it had a post today, but it's still an issue that exists today. The real regret is that you miss out on knowing some people who are probably very nice in real life. The other thing is opinions versus facts. People are entitled even to opinions others of us feel are totally off base and attacking an opinion is unfortunate. Correcting a misstatement of face is different. However, some very opinionated people think their opinions are always fact and other opinions are misstatement of fact. The forum seems to me to be 90% of the time without combat, but then when it rears it's head it gets very ugly fast.

Paying Dues

I have a saying: "The job's not done until I bleed". This business and this life is all about paying dues to earn your place. Many on here have paid them in spades. Those that have know all about it. Those that haven't don't understand what it's all about. This is the big boys here. When you play with the big boys there may be some bruises.
One thing I've notice over the years is that we have a lot of members who's first post started with 'I've been lurking for a long time....' . They understand how things are and who the players are. Then there's some that just stumble in, and sometimes they get taught the how and who.
There's a lot of passionette people here. You don't do what we do without being passionate or nuts. As scary or obnoxious as some of the interactions are, there are many more that are welcoming and enlightening. I think the logged in numbers show that, in general, people find YF a pretty good place to visit.
Also, many of us have been dealing with each other for a long time. Sometimes we just don't like each other or what eachother says. And that's ok. We're a bit of a fairly knowledgable, dysfunctional family here.
And the mods do a pretty good job as refs.

If you think this is a "combative" forum, then you have not checked out the ones I have. Many are full of politics at it's worst, rudeness, members tribes, advertising and phishing.

I don't think the "innocent" will have an issue here. Only the impostor.

You are right and even some special interest forums like this have their problems. Sports forums have been my worst experiences. Now, some of the cruising forums are good at staying on topic. And I take back about sports forums being the worst, some of the business forums and executive forums are absolutely the worst because every business issue brought up seems to deteriorate into a political debate and then somehow the politics turns into religion.

Still that doesn't mean any of them couldn't improve either. Maybe it's because this one is so good 95% of the time we hope for even more. I, personally, have encountered no real issues here. The only one that threatened to be negative, I communicated in private and we ended up fine. I would suggest those who do feel somehow personally attacked communicate that privately to whomever they felt did so. I also think it's quite natural that newbies will be less knowledgeable than veterans but its the continuous flow of new members that keeps any forum vital as others do leave or become less active over time.

Without question, I have found this to be the most informative yacht forum online. I'm amazed at those here who not only are expert in yachts but are such fanatics as to the histories of various brands and recognize and know all those that are mentioned. I'm shocked when a photo is posted and so many recognize what boat it is and know it's history. I would say there is also far more involvement here in restorations than I expected and more interest in older boats. It's a great forum even if on rare occasion there are some unnecessary personal wars waged. They actually appear to be more often between those who have known each other a long time and may have a somewhat love/hate relationship.

No, no. If you thought that was a bit iffy you should see what we get up to on a Supercar website about Teaspoons.

Yes, 70 pages of Teaspoons!!

New Teaspoon Advice Please - PistonHeads

Guide to win online arguments...

Win online arguments!
Enjoy battling it out on the bulletin boards? Like getting stuck into a good, pointless argument with only one aim - to win at any cost? Then this guide is for you - simply follow the 12-point guide below and success will be yours!

1. Get friendly
Always refer to your opponent by his/her first name. Your messages will seem warm and friendly, despite the rabid ferocity of their content. After a few exchanges, begin to use a corruption of your opponent's name - begin with "William", then change to "Billy", then change to something like "Billy-Boy". Women don't enjoy having their names shortened either, so make sure that "Mrs. Elizabeth C. Osbourne-Smythe PhD, QC" is always addressed as "Lizzy".

2. Picky! Picky!
Criticising your opponents spelling or grammar will make you look pedantic. Far better to deliberately misread a message, then follow-up with an utterly incongruous statement. And if they make a factual error - no matter how small - make sure you're on hand to remind them of their error as often as possible.

3. Be selective
Selective editing is a good way to avoid engaging with your opponent's better arguments. Simply delete that intelligent, pointed question which ends paragraph three and reply instead to the weaker arguments beneath. Should your opponent post something like "I'm sorry but you're talking crap", snip everything but the first two words then graciously accept his apology.

4. Showboat
Once the argument is in full swing, publicly thank all those people who have e-mailed you privately with their messages of support. Claim that you are too busy to reply to each of them personally at the moment, but promise to continue fighting on their behalf.

5. You've got history
Boasting about how long you've been subscribed to a forum or newsgroup is not advised. Far better to make obscure references to the forum/newsgroup when only thirteen people knew it existed. Fondly recall a similar flame-war which took place in 1989 between "Big Al" and "Phyllis from Kent". If a newly arrived opponent produces a particularly strong argument, tell them that you've already discussed (and won) this debate last year and that you've no intention of repeating your crushing arguments all over again for their benefit.

top

6. There's lots of you
Always refer to yourself in the plural, as though you are speaking on behalf of the whole newsgroup: "all we are trying to say is..." sounds much more pompous than "all I am trying to say is...". When other people join in the thread, the rules are simple: if they side with you, follow-up immediately and enthusiastically, congratulating them on their courage; if they side with your opponent, ignore the tossers.

7. One step ahead
Pre-empt all replies. Tell your opponent that you know exactly how he or she is going to respond to your message because you've seen it all before. List all potential counter-arguments to your position and invite your opponent to choose one.

8. Beer and arguments don't mix
Never, ever, rejoin a long-running argument after ten pints in the pub. Although the devastating logic of your drunken ramblings will seem inescapable to you at the time, your opponent will lap up the incoherent, inconsistent, beer-troubled flaws in your argument and you'll be unlikely to recover. If you've been involved in a particularly vehement argument where you've staked your reputation on the line, get a friend to lock away your PC on pub nights.

9. Bamboozle with links
If your opponent's tenacity is proving too much for you, try a Google counter-attack. This involves posting up an endless stream of vaguely related links, insisting that there's more than enough evidence contained in the 50+ linked sites to crush any counter argument. Ensure you keep the references vague and preferably link to pages that are stuffed full of even more links. If your enemy can't find the evidence they're demanding, blame them for their lack of research skills - after all, you've already provided them with ample resources.

10. I didn't say that!
Never apologise for anything, ever.

11. Play dirty
Think the argument isn't going your way? Simply post one long, highly antagonistic message in which you completely misrepresent everything your opponent has said in the last three weeks. End by martyrishly declaring that the argument has dragged on for too long and that you have no choice but to kill-file/ignore your opponent. Ignore any further messages and/or quietly re-register under a new name.

12. Victory is yours!
Won the argument? Congratulations - but remember to be utterly unbearable in victory. Make generous excuses for your opponent's behaviour ("I know you primary school technicians can be under a lot of stress", "the menopause can be a very difficult time", etc), but retain a calm tone of superiority ("the important thing is to learn from your mistakes"). State that you hope your opponent stays around and reassure him/her that other subscribers are sure to forget all about this sorry business in a couple of years.

Original: © 1999 Steven Jones, updates and additions © urban75, March 2004.

See also:
« The Subtle Art of Trolling
« Beware of the Troll
« SJ's Top Ten Tips For On-Line Sex Seekers.



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