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Under contract - 2003 Neptunus 56 w/ cat 3406e - top speed/rpm issue

Discussion in 'Neptunus Yacht' started by makesumwake, Jan 14, 2022.

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  1. makesumwake

    makesumwake New Member

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    Listing is here: https://www.**************/yacht/2003-neptunus-56-flybridge-7826300/

    i just did a preliminary sea trial with owner
    -boat just had fresh bottom cleaning
    -fuel and water tanks full
    - sea state close to coast was 1 or 2ft, pretty calm

    max rated rpm for these engines is 2300.
    at 78% throttle, fuel usage was about 65gph, and speed was about 21knots
    at 100% throttle, rpm seen was about 2150, with 76gph fuel usage, speed about 24knots

    experienced marine tech says 76gph is max fuel usage for these engines.
    but max speed seems low and fuel usage seems like that of a 65ft yacht, not a 56 ft (52000 lbs)

    on another 62 neptunus (65ft overall) w/cat c-18s set to 1000hp - fuel burn at cruise (~22knots) is 66-72 gph.


    im currently under contract for 430k (including dinghy and spare props).
    engines = overhauled cat 3406e engines at 2000hrs, currently 100 hrs on overhaul. i have receipts of all work done, verified at rebuilder shop

    gen = 17kn Onan, about 2k hrs

    both engines start instantly, zero smoke of any kind
    gen starts instantly, zero smoke of any kind

    maybe it needs fresh bottom paint?
    or it is not propped correctly?

    thanks
    -Phil
  2. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    Or maybe it has engine trouble. Regardless, I'd go no further until it was figured out and it turned maximum RPM.
  3. mapism

    mapism Senior Member

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    Why?
    Leaving aside the fact that the hour meter in one of the ad photos shows less than 1400 hours, I would want to know the real reason for the overhaul, because these are solid engines that at 2000 should still be barely ran in, if properly used and maintained.
    Anyway, if you check out the attached specs sheet, you will see that there's nothing wrong with their fuel burn as such, because at full load they can produce the max rated power at any RPM from 1600 onward - hence obviously burning as much as if they were running at 2300 fully loaded (i.e. 40 GPH each, according to the manufacturer).
    Regardless, overhauling engines and not checking that they can reach the rated max RPM afterwards strikes of a bit of a Mickey Mouse job, to put it bluntly...

    Attached Files:

    Mark RIVAIT likes this.
  4. makesumwake

    makesumwake New Member

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    Mapism,

    thanks for that pdf, lots of info.

    to answer your questions:

    1. the mechanical hour meters stopped working a while ago, each one stopped at a different hours. one around 1400hrs and the other side showed 1850hrs.
    but the digital cat displays at the helm show about 2090 and 2100
    rebuild was 9 months ago, and about 100hrs ago

    2. reason for overhaul was that the intercoolers were leaking for a period of time (well known for this 3406e engine apparently)and ruined the heads/valves and the engines continuously emitted black smoke (as per the rebuilder i talked to). owners didn't do anything about it until the smoke got so bad it was leaving black soot all over the deck and interior
    they finally got them overhauled and everything cleaned up and decided to sell (from what the owner told me).
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2022
  5. makesumwake

    makesumwake New Member

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    thanks, and yes, i will stop and figure this out.

    from researching online, it appears the cruise speed should be 24-26knots and top speed should be 30-31knots
    i found multiple sources, but here is one https://www.yachtingmagazine.com/neptunus-56-sedan-bridge/
  6. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    Something is very wrong with these numbers. I wouldn’t even consider a survey until the engines turns rated rpm. 150 rpm short is a big deal.

    If the seller ignored an obvious engine issue for that long to the point they had to be rebuild, what else did he ignore which will come and bite you in the... you know.

    run Forrest, run.
  7. Danvilletim

    Danvilletim Senior Member

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    I would think CAT techs could hook up laptop and figure out the state of engines. Could be props are just off. Fuel burn on older boats is often off a little. I imagine it would be 4-6k for the props to get modified.

    I’d ask for the owner to get the rpms in tune but in this market he might not. Could do a full survey and just ask for some dollars to address.
  8. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    I wouldn’t spend a dime on surveying the boat unless it turns RPM especially since it is clear the seller ignited the warning signs
  9. DOCKMASTER

    DOCKMASTER Senior Member

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    Did they do a proper test and trial after the overhauls? Does the owner have documentation? If the overhauls were done by reputable CAT shop they would have flagged the low RPM at WOT during trials. What did they have to say about the issue after overhaul?
    I would not proceed unless seller corrects the issue to your satisfaction. Given you do not know where the problem is, there is no telling the cost to correct. Unless the seller gives you a substantial reduction I would be very cautious here. Something does not sound right.
  10. makesumwake

    makesumwake New Member

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    yes i will pause the deal and investigate further and report back.

    owner did mention that the lower speed could be due in part to having just filled fuel and water (200 gallon water tank and 800 gallon fuel tank). going from half fuel and water to full fuel and water should be about 5% change in weight for this boat. not significant i wouldn't think to create a 25% reduction in top speed?
  11. Sea Gull

    Sea Gull Member

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    Stop worrying about speed and concentrate on RPM.
  12. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    No it will not affect speed that much. Maybe a knot.

    21kts on 65GPH at 78% load is insane for a 56 footer.

    the Lazzara 84 I used to run burned 76 GPH at 20kts and 47% load. Yes... 84 footer. A very economical 84 footer but still a lot bigger.

    Something is very wrong with this picture.
  13. DOCKMASTER

    DOCKMASTER Senior Member

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    If properly propped, you should make full rated RPM at full load. That’s full fuel, full water, provisions and people aboard.
    Capt Ralph and rtrafford like this.
  14. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    Stop buying excuses from owner who let things deteriorate. It's not speed we're concerned with, it's RPM.

    Anyone who rebuilds and fails to see they're meeting max RPM have zero test of their rebuild. The number one tool in evaluating any major service is a sea trial after to see that max RPM is met. We regularly check all boats to see that Max RPM is still achieved. With most, you get slightly more in peak condition. 25 less might be ok. 50 really stretching it. 150 less RPM is a serious issue. While it could be prop, I doubt they suddenly changed props. Are these CAT certified rebuilds?
  15. makesumwake

    makesumwake New Member

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    Overhauler is "Southbay Marine Techs". they claim to be cat certified. i will call monday and see if they have an explanation.
  16. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    Ask if they used a Gold or Platinum Kit?

    May be certified techs, but not a CAT dealer. (I checked CAT's site). Claim to specialize in CAT. I have no experience with them. Don't even have a website.
  17. rtrafford

    rtrafford Senior Member

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    3406E-800's on a 53 Convertible fresh out of the slings with a perfect bottom, perfect props, and very light on fuel as well as water. WOT sea trial...

    IMG_3216.jpg
  18. rtrafford

    rtrafford Senior Member

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    Full of fuel and water she would turn at or just shy of 2325. Sharing the data for you to compare.
  19. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    Perfect, exactly what one would want.
  20. mapism

    mapism Senior Member

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    Bad manifold temperature sensor on stbd engine, possibly?