Click for Westport Click for Walker Click for Llebroc Click for Abeking Click for Horizon

Another rant about bad designs

Discussion in 'Technical Discussion' started by Pascal, Oct 10, 2017.

You need to be registered and signed in to view this content.
  1. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2008
    Messages:
    3,401
    Location:
    Miami, FL
    this drives me nuts. 2009 Lazzara 84

    This little, lonely Rule 2000 is that tiny little sump is the only bilge pump Lazzara felt was necessary in the Lazarette. Even though they installed high water alarms in the other bilges, I guess they believed rudder glands never leak and shower sumps never fail

    There is a pick up for the emergency high capacity Hail Mary 240v crash pump but other wise no back up.

    Note how small the sump is... so you must have a check valve otherwise the pump cycles non stop as the **** sump holds about as much water as the hose! I hate check valves.

    This ridiculously stupid set up has cost us a $650 motor for the master and crew head transfer pump... you can see it sits just 2" over the bottom of the "bilge". Luckily it happened here in Miami with nobody on board. Imagine having to tell owners or charter guests while in the Bahamas "sorry you cant use the master head"

    Now to add a high water alarm, I can run new wires to the nearest ISIS box but then would have to get someone reprogram the ISIS system to include the new alarm... or I can hook it up to the nearby ER high water switch

    .... and as bonus a previous captain had butchered the bilge pump wiring and left it hanging on the floor of the lazarette hidden behind the transfer pump. Neither I in over a year or the surveyor could see it.

    IMG_6279.JPG
  2. Trinimax

    Trinimax Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2010
    Messages:
    148
    Location:
    Trinidad and Tobago Yacht club
    Any possibility of adding a diaphragm pump set on a timer in the back there. I have a whale gulper 220 diaphragm pump setup in the forward bilge of the Ocean 43 and I have it on a timer so that it runs for about 30 seconds every 1 hour( or however you prefer to set it) and it keeps the bilge almost bone dry. this should stop your main pump from cycling as often
  3. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2008
    Messages:
    3,401
    Location:
    Miami, FL
    That s what they did in the main bilge in addition to conventional pump although it s used with a float switch

    But regardless of pump type, having only one pump and no high water is just plain stupid
  4. rcrapps

    rcrapps Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2004
    Messages:
    4,765
    Location:
    Jax FL
    Get with George C at DepcoPump. They have thier own design diaprame pump replacing the clunky Par bilge pumps. I installed one on a customers boat and luv it.
    For a real redneck design. Leave a auto rule pump in place. Output hose to the new DepCo pump, then overboard. A float switch to the DepCo pump. This float switch runs the pump and alarm.
    Rule pump runs normally. Check valves in next pump work. When the rule pump fails, water comes up turns on the DepCo diaphram pump and discharges out the same hose. Also, the rule pump acts like a low water pickup.
  5. Trinimax

    Trinimax Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2010
    Messages:
    148
    Location:
    Trinidad and Tobago Yacht club
    Agreed a single 200 gph pump in the aft compartment of a 76 ft boat is a bit on the low side. most 40 ft sportfishers have double that capacity. i take it with the access, it is not easy to add a second larger pump
  6. Bill106

    Bill106 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2010
    Messages:
    319
    Location:
    Beaufort NC
    At least you have a good float switch! :)
    If that's the Ultra Senior it should have a set of high water alarm contacts you can wire into.
  7. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2008
    Messages:
    3,401
    Location:
    Miami, FL
    As good as the Ultra Switches maybe I don't want to use the same switch for the high water alarm. Doesn't make any sense... if the switch fails you loose the pump and the high water alarm

    On my old Hatt, only 53, i redid the whole bilge system basically from the pump all the way to the battery with new pumps and switches, secondary high water alarms, new wiring, new alarm/switch/breaker/led panel and new feed to the battery. I used 4 rule 3600 and have provision for two more on the panel. I sleep better that way.

    On my boat running new wiring harnesses is pretty simple, not so on this 84...
  8. captholli

    captholli Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2010
    Messages:
    575
    Location:
    In The Bilge
    +1 on the Ultra. This powered switch is hard to beat at the price point but all sorts of new proven technology for flow and water level via proximity switches are now coming into the marine market that will shake things up a bit bilge and tank level sensor wise. R.F. & K.I.D. switch technology will start showing up aboard smaller production vessels and for the aftermarket at the boat shows.
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2017
  9. rcrapps

    rcrapps Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2004
    Messages:
    4,765
    Location:
    Jax FL
    I do go thru a lot of Rule float switches.
    Never replaced an Ultra switch.
    They do have a lifetime warranty.
  10. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2005
    Messages:
    9,574
    Location:
    Fort Lauderdale
    I would recommend having an automatic pump like the rulamatic (the square one that has a built in float switch, not the one that cycles on every 2 mins) and just mounting it on an L bracket 1-2" above where the other bilge pump cycles on, wire this directly to an alarm horn......or to the ISIS system, so that when it cycles on it alarms.....then you have both spare bilge and alarm. That's how Sunseeker does it and it's a brilliant setup, because the pump automatically pumps, an alarm is useless if nobody is there to hear it.

    The ultra switches are good, but I don't like how high the bilge level has to rise before they kick the pump on. The new rule switches ever since they changed the shape are not that great....2 year switches.
  11. rcrapps

    rcrapps Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2004
    Messages:
    4,765
    Location:
    Jax FL
    Just found that Johnson 2200 pumps have a built in check valve.
  12. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2008
    Messages:
    3,401
    Location:
    Miami, FL
    The range of the ultra switch is the same as the rule switches, 1 1/4" i believe. If ther was a simple way to test them instead of relying on the green light, they d be perfect

    I ve often used a dual pump setup with th back up a litle higher. Thats what i m trying to do here. Problem is having to run th hose in the cramped space along the transom and add a new TH
  13. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2005
    Messages:
    9,574
    Location:
    Fort Lauderdale
    While far from ideal, you could Y both pumps into the same discharge hose with check valves if you had to, I'd find this superior to just having 1 pump and a high water alarm, however far below having 2 dedicated pumps with their own discharge hoses.
  14. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2008
    Messages:
    3,401
    Location:
    Miami, FL
    Or I may tap it in the discharge of the 240v emergency pump. With the right height and angle it should be fine. I ll see.
  15. ranger42c

    ranger42c Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2013
    Messages:
    272
    Location:
    South River, Chesapeake Bay

    Can you not just slip the Ultra out of the hose clamp and turn it upside down to test?

    -Chris
  16. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2008
    Messages:
    3,401
    Location:
    Miami, FL
    Sure but not as easy as flipping a conventional switch up...
  17. Lepke

    Lepke Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2015
    Messages:
    59
    Location:
    US West Coast. Cruise NW Passage to Alaska.
    In small bilge areas where I want to keep the water as low as possible, I add a 2nd small pump/float and pump to the closest shower sump.
    The big pump never comes on. I also leave the shower sumps open so in flooding situation they also pump.
  18. rcrapps

    rcrapps Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2004
    Messages:
    4,765
    Location:
    Jax FL
    The last Pro Boat Builder #169 has a long write up on the Lazara family building boats.
  19. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2005
    Messages:
    9,574
    Location:
    Fort Lauderdale
    Rule makes a new small pump with a very low pickup that's supposed to keep bilge water very low. It turns on at 1.3". But it's that stupid design that turns on every 2.5 minutes to check for water.

    https://www.westmarine.com/buy/rule...e-automatic-bilge-pump--15038078?recordNum=14
  20. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2008
    Messages:
    3,401
    Location:
    Miami, FL
    Problem is the sump is way too shallow, its about 1 3/8". No float switch will kick in before its full.

    I think its too close to the bottom to make it any deeper although i am thinking about enlarging it horizontally.

    I ve decided to add a rule 3700 and add a thru hull on the port hull side near the stern, there is more access on that side to run the 1 1/2 hose. This is a back up Lazzara should have installed.

Share This Page