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Your Opinion on a smaller boat...

Discussion in 'General Yachting Discussion' started by hbyachtboy, Apr 27, 2008.

  1. hbyachtboy

    hbyachtboy New Member

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    Hello,
    I am currently in the process of looking to buy a smaller boat in the 30 foot range. I do most of my boating in Long Island, New York. I have not owned a boat before but I am very excited to start. Right now I have some options which I am deciding between. We like the IPS system the most so we would want that on ours. We are right now deciding between a Formula 37 PC with IPS and a Tiara 3500 Sovran also with IPS. Does anyone have a preference?

    Thanks,
    Heston
  2. Ken Bracewell

    Ken Bracewell Senior Member

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    The quality of the Tiara is excellent. Don't know much about the Formula though.
  3. hbyachtboy

    hbyachtboy New Member

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    Your opinion

    Yeah I think they make great boats too. I just cant really decide yet because there is a price leap in the tiara vs. the formula. Thanks for the quick response
  4. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    You're not talking IPS until you get over about 36'. Below that you're probably dealing with Mercruiser Axius system.
    The pods, especially the IPS, is the future of boating. Putting aside the maneuvering & speed advantages, the fuel savings have to be a huge consideration.
    Comparing Formula to Tiara is comparing apples to oranges. Tiara is much better quality, Formula is glitzier and with a much lower price. Both are fine boats though. What you have to consider is how you will use it, how much, and for how long. Will you spend your time cruising Peconic, maybe shooting over to Conn. or will you be running to Newport and the Vinyard? Are you looking for something you'll be selling in a year or two or that you'll be keeping longer? Will you be bringing it south for the winter? etc.

    I'm an independent captain and spent the last couple of days transporting and teaching on 31 & 35 formulas, while that Tiara with the IPS was being demo'd. Very familiar with these boats & more, as well as the dealers in this area and the waters. PM me with more info on how you see yourself using the new boat and I'll help you to narrow the decission.
    P.S. There's a better than even chance that I'll be the guy who ends up teaching you how to run your new boat.
  5. KCook

    KCook Senior Member

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    Or you could save a pile of money with a Four Winns or Monterey ....

    cheap seats Kelly
  6. AMG

    AMG YF Moderator

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    This is only when you compare to traditional shafts and rudders.
  7. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    HBYACHTBOY
    You can already see emerging the big problem people have when boat shopping. Too many choices. The good news is that today there really are no garbage lines. Virtually all manufacturers comply with industry standards and seek to build a quality product.
    What you've got to decide is: 1) What is my budget; 2) How do I see myself using the boat (see my previous post); 3) Is where the dealership gets me a slip (and make sure that is part of the deal unless you have a private dock) convenient for me, because a boat that's not convenient is one that doesn't get used; 4) Does the dealership have a good service department; 5) Do the people at the dealership (salesman, manager/owner, service manager, service writers) make me feel comfortable. Remember, you are seeing them at their best right now while the money is still in your pocket.
    Price is a secondary consideration because what you save today you'll lose at resale time, so it all balances out.
  8. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    AMG,
    The IPS outperforms outdrives, surface piercing and jets as well. Granted sails and oars have better fuel economy, but they lack a little in the speed department. :D (Just being a wiseguy)
    Seriously though, this technology moved up from tugs to ships and now is moving down to the yachts. The only down side I see is in areas where soft bottom strikes are common (shallow bays) because it's certainly more expensive to replace a lower unit than to recondition a prop. Other than that I see this as the technology of the future.
  9. AMG

    AMG YF Moderator

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    Not even Volvo Penta makes this claim. Our 40-footer is doing 47 knots with 2xD6/370/DPH which is not possible with 2xIPS/500. They are good, but not for high speed boats.

    Attached Files:

  10. Seafarer

    Seafarer Senior Member

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    Anywhere there is likely to be some flotsam (here in the Hudson, it tends to be whole trees, telephone poles, and the like) are also areas of concern. Not so much when you're pushing a loaded barge or you've got 500' of ship ahead of the drives, but with only 25-30' of boat? Asking for trouble. I guess having any sort of skeg forward of each drive, or a deep keel, would ruin the efficiency and maneuverability advantages, though?
  11. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    AMG,
    You are absolutely right about the go-fasts. I doubt you'll ever see these on cigs or Hustlers, etc. I don't spend too much time thinking about them though. I'm not familiar with your boat, but 47 kts with that hull shape surprises me. Are you running Arensons or jets, because over this way that would be a lot of boat to be pushed by I/O's? It looks like a boat that would definitely benifit from IPS. P.S., I realize that I'm sounding a bit like a salesman for IPS. NO way! Just like the results I've seen.
    Seafarer,
    You've got the same concerns I had when I first saw this. As it was explained to me a catastrophic hit would be close in price, but maintain hull integrity so you'd avoid the result of droping your shafts. Again, not a salesman for IPS, but I like the questions being brought up. Anybody out there with reallife experience with the pods yet?
    I'm curious.
  12. AMG

    AMG YF Moderator

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    As I mentioned above, we have the same engines as IPS/500 but with Aquamatic. When i compare our performance figures with the Tiara 3900 Sovran, they are cruising 28,5 knots at 3100 rpm, we are cruising 40 knots at the same rpm. I guess our mileage are miles better.... so, as Volvo Penta says, IPS should be compared to traditional shafts and rudders.
  13. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    Living & learning AMG. Tell me more. Don't run into too many diesel I/O's over my way. How does the package hold up, what kind of gph, does that aquamatic have duo-prop, how is she for slow speed maneuvering? Around here we usually go for shafts over about 32-36 feet except on the go-fasts and they usually stick with gas. Personally 50 kts on the water scares hell out of me. Seen too much stuff floating.
  14. catmando

    catmando Senior Member

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    Lol yeah I was gonna say that's a HUGE statement! Your 40' cruiser runs 52mph with just 740hp??? I want one like it with the 485 Yanmars. 60 knots for sure!!
  15. Fishtigua

    Fishtigua Senior Member

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    As a Volvo Penta service center we look after a number of IPS boats and we have had no problems with them yet, but that is on craft that would normally run props on shafts. I have not seen any on sport cruisers yet. Remember the cost of servicing an outdrive (DPH) is on a par with an engine so think of it as running 4 engines (Gulp)

    I guess Volvo are looking at the Sport market as you can now get IPS on V8 Gas engines

    Dave
  16. DON GREER

    DON GREER Member

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    cost is relative

    If you want to enjoy boating consider the operating cost after the initial capital outlay.

    I am down-sizing to a76 footer but only if I can get the IPS installed in a new hull. Sooner or later paying a couple of hundred grand in fuel every year will get to you.

    The elimination of bow and stern thrusters, shafts, shaft stays, rudder and rudder hardware adds up to significantly less parasitic hull drag. The elimination of this all of this equipment means elimination of one heck of a lot of weight in the boat. It also means less to go wrong, less to maintain and less spare parts because there is less to repair. The net difference is a more efficient boat overall; lower operating cost.

    Borrow a friend’s boat if you want to go really fast. Likely they don’t use it much because of the cost of fuel in any case.

    Play safe….enjoy…
  17. Fishtigua

    Fishtigua Senior Member

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    Ips

    Just a little heads-up on fitting IPS. We had an owner of a 48' Sportfisher that had them fitted. Very tight in the engine room for working on them, so think very hard about placement near the transom (it was hull No.1). When offered the EVC-C package for the full fly-by-wire he bulked at the $10,000 cost and now regrets it. He then asked how much to retrofit the system and went a little pale with the price.

    Don, a 65/75' is just right for an easy to berth boat when there's just two of you but (especially in BC) a bowthruster is a real big help.

    Dave
  18. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    Although I firmly believe in IPS, 76 is as big as I've heard. I'd have it surveyed by a very good naval archetect before trying such a conversion. Back in the 90's a lot of good boats got ruined because people thought an extension just meant making it longer. DK if I'd want to make my 76 footer a test case.
  19. DON GREER

    DON GREER Member

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    the devil is in the details

    You’re right there.

    I have the engineers from Volvo, the hull designer, the architect and my people looking into it.

    The current semi-displacement hull will have to be re-designed. Nonetheless, the 850IPS could make a significant difference in the overall hull performance as well as provide excellent maneuverability. The projected fuel economy is another factor that ultimately makes sense.

    Personally I like the reduction in systems. Less is better in this case.
  20. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    Just reread your first post. Sorry, I thought you were rebuilding an existing boat and couldn't figure out how this was going to be cost effective. We'd just done a cost analysis on a 50 and came up short. For a new build IPS sounds like a great idea. Besides the fuel savings it will pay at resale time. I look forward to hearing the performance stats.