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Yacht value evaluation principle - right or wrong?

Discussion in 'General Yachting Discussion' started by Alf, Oct 4, 2009.

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  1. Alf, Oct 4, 2009
    #1
    Alf

    Alf New Member

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    Hello everyone,
    I am in the process of looking for a boat to buy and live aboard as well as sail occasionally.
    As far as I could find thus far the design of the MATTHEWS 56' Voyager, the ISLAND TRADER 46 or the ANGEL 56' might be the types of boats that could serve as a source of inspiration.
    I find that sometimes used boats sellers think that they sell REAL ESTATE...that has a somewhat legitimate expectation to appreciate in price as opposed to a boat which in my Mechanical Engineers mind is basically a piece of Machinery. Such mechanical device in my opinion by definition depreciates with no land element to sustain any appreciation. I find the evaluation principle to be applied - granting of course all the relevant differences - more along the lines of a truck that can be slept in or even an RV then a house that can be carried along everywhere and a rather limited one at that
    Succinctly put it's a depreciating machine that allows you to sleep in in during it's use.
    What is your opinion and what should I consider in evaluating the possibilities of building a boat or trying to find a used one that suits my needs.
    Should I find your suggestions reasonable I might of course consider a new boat.
    Thanking you in advance I remain
    Yours,
    Alfred
  2. NYCAP123, Oct 4, 2009
    #2
    NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    Definitely a depreciating asset. A mistress is the only faster way to get rid of money. There are guides to value such as BUC, but it's very much a matter of passion.
  3. Alf, Oct 5, 2009
    #3
    Alf

    Alf New Member

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    By "BUC" did you mean: 'Buoyant Unless Crap' ?? :):)

    Hi there NYCAP and thanks for the vote of confidence.
    Loved your "mistress" bit. I'll adopt it!!! ;-)
    Well now to the things that come to my mind:
    A marine Caterpillar 3208 with 0 hours after being rebuilt would probably go for something along the lines of $10000 to $15000, all the Radio and Electronics....another 5 to 10 brand new installed. A new ONAN generator (15-20) KW I'll soon get a quote for as well as the price of pumps, the relevant gear and propellers and shafts...
    I might also consider a rebuilt Generator...
    The price of a used hull is still an enigma that I must answer and I don't know how.
    I know I'm looking for something along the lines of what I specified in my previous writing.
    Appliances are a non issue and I expect the same with respect to the carpeting and carpentry that remains......TBD but then how expensive could it be?
    Then the work itself and securing sea readiness.....
    Have I left anything out?
    I'll do the project supervision.....
    Any wise thoughts that you might contribute CAP?
    Any wise ideas from experienced people would be highly appreciated.
    Alf
  4. Viceroy, Oct 5, 2009
    #4
    Viceroy

    Viceroy Member

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    Ten Percent Rule

    Never spend more than 10% of your net worth on a pleasure boat.
    Whatever the price, budget 10% of that cost, annually, just to keep it afloat.
    Purchase a boat at least 10% less in length than you figure you need.
    Purchase a boat at least 10% newer than the boat you are considering.

    If a live-aboard, I might be inclined to up the first line up to 25% of your net worth...but not alter the others.

    Cheers, Richard.
  5. NYCAP123, Oct 5, 2009
    #5
    NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    BUC: http://www.bucvalu.com/
    Viceroy, I agree with your #'s except: "Purchase a boat at least 10% less in length than you figure you need." When looking at 2 boats I always recommend going with the larger because you'll most likely be there within 3 years and another broker's fee.
    Alf, It sounds like you're planning to build it from the keel up...and with used parts. You'll see some such doings on the Roamer threads. Check them to see what's involved. Unless it's a classic and you have a lot of time, skill, money and a real understanding honey I forsee a sign that says: "Divorce causes sale (and boat caused divorce)". Back in the 60's I remember hearing that to build a Ford from parts would cost 4x's what it would cost built by Ford. There's been a whole lot of inflation since then.
  6. Marmot, Oct 5, 2009
    #6
    Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    Famous last words.
  7. NYCAP123, Oct 5, 2009
    #7
    NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    Those words sure had me chuckling.:D
  8. Alf, Oct 5, 2009
    #8
    Alf

    Alf New Member

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    First:
    What did you think about Val's Matthews 56' that went as I understand to TEXAS?
    It sold bellow $ 130000 but I don't know exactly how far below

    BTW I have to consider transportation costs to the east Mediterranean which makes my search that much more difficult.

    second:
    OK you guys, I got it
    Famous last words, my foot....not in a million years...at least not mine.
    I was told more then once that I might be crazy but certainly not stupid, so...infering from your 'Joint Chuckles' and 'Divorce Predictions' I gather that "scratching" the reconstruction and starting from "scratch" is the sane thing to do.
    Not because of the divorce - done that already - but because of the expected frustration of working a lot, spending lots of the green stuff and enjoying it very little.
    As I see it such frustration may lead to a premature condition of smelling roses from their roots and I've never been in a hurry to get there.
    So back to SQ 1 - searching a boat in decent condition at a reasonable price.
    One thing I know...I've seen some of the newer plastic interior stuff and all I felt about it was....oh stuff it with this impersonal crap.

    Thanks y'all, I'll keep you posted as things progress and you
    if you feel you have some words of wisdom then I'll let you know that I guess I'm looking for something between the Island Trader 46 and the Matthews 56' Voyager or their equivalent.

    Yours,
    Alf
  9. Alf, Oct 5, 2009
    #9
    Alf

    Alf New Member

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    Thanks Viceroy,
    It sounds like sound advise.
    Definitely gives me a sense of 'scale'.
    I'll keep your advise between my ears and try to act on it.
    Yours,
    Alf
  10. NYCAP123, Oct 6, 2009
    #10
    NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    Alf, didn't mean to offend you. Just having a little fun. Sorry. Knew CapVal, her mate and the boat years back. My guess is that the buyer got a very good deal. The main thing you'll have to check into bring any boat from the U.S. is the electrical system. BTW, when you're a bit further down the road into this project you will look back at those words and say "What was I thinking".;) You are wished the best of luck though.
  11. Alf, Oct 6, 2009
    #11
    Alf

    Alf New Member

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    Hi NYCAP,
    I was not at all offended and I apologize if I gave the impression that I was. The opposite is true. I appreciate your input immensely and can see the fun in the way you guys present your thoughts. Where would we be w/o a little humor?
    Having been away from The States for a long time It did take me a while to understand the inference of the "FAMOUS last words" and once I did I laughed at myself. As far as 'chuckles' go....youre more kind then I would have been
    The idea that I was trying to convey is that I appreciate your waking up call that stirred me away from a stupid adventure that would have constituted biting - much - more then I can chew.
    I actually realize that to attempt that kind of a project may be a little crazy and a little stupid on my part. I can live with the 'crazy' part.
    About CAPVAL - I thought you might say that.
    It did seem like a good deal.
    It still is for me for even if I didn't buy the boat for it gave me a working frame of mind.
    Your input about the electrical system is probably very important although truthfully I'm not sure I understand why a transformer/converter can't answer the problem.

    Incidentally there is here in Israel an Angel 56' ==>> see the URL below

    http://www.*************/Power/Angel-Marine/Category/Length/58082/Feet/USD/1/boats.aspx

    It's been on the market for quite sometime....note that the pictures are from the year 2000.
    But I do't know when it was actually put up for sale.
    The owners maintenance guy says he's had it for 12 years.
    Strangely enough, the electrical system it has is 110 v
    I'm thinking about making an offer on it but it's a sum that is in complete disregard of the printed asking price and I wonder if I might offend the seller there.

    From what I can gather it's not in as good a shape as the 54' in LA ==>> see URL

    http://www.*************/Power/ANGEL-MARINE/Category/Length/94615/Feet/USD/1/boats.aspx

    That's it for this time and again kindly accept my apology for creating the wrong impression. I do appreciate your input and like your way of putting things.
    Oh one more thing....what does BUC stand for?
    As I don't know what it means I invented my own meaning for the abbreviation.

    Cheers,
    Alf
  12. NYCAP123, Oct 6, 2009
    #12
    NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    Click the BUC link in post #5. It's sort of the Kelly's Blue Book for boats. Not familiar with Angel Marine, but that's a good looking boat. It looks like twin 30 amp elec. which is common for that vintage and is fine.
  13. JWY, Oct 6, 2009
    #13
    JWY

    JWY Senior Member

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    Angel Marine was one of the manufacturers of a class of yachts that has affectionately become know as TTs, Taiwanese Tubs. Big roomy boats great for live-aboard and coastal cruising with all of the standard flaws that come with TTs. Usually "value priced." Depending on the particular yard, family, and day, some TTs are better than others.

    Judy Waldman
  14. Alf, Oct 6, 2009
    #14
    Alf

    Alf New Member

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    Well how in the world does one evaluate this thing
    In the URL's below, where pertinent, I gave prices in $ as well as NIS so in case one decides to check out the URL's one can identify the boat since the site is in Hebrew and I can't expect you guys to be able to read this backward - right to left - language.
    1)
    For a 1990 65' iron hull with 3 decks and 500HP Fiat diesels
    $140,000 = NIS 525,000
    http://www.yad2.co.il/Marine/waterc...2&ignition=1&hKM=0&age=0&length=&unitLength=1
    Haven't seen the actual condition yet...
    2) A 1996 38' fiberglass Princess,twin Turbo diesel CATs 420 HP each- with100hours
    $120,000 = NIS 450,000
    http://www.yad2.co.il/Marine/waterc...2&ignition=1&hKM=0&age=0&length=&unitLength=1
    3)then the ANGELS (a) 56' and (b) 54' respectively
    (a)
    http://www.*************/Power/Angel-Marine/Category/Length/58082/Feet/USD/1/boats.aspx

    (b)
    http://www.*************/Power/ANGEL-MARINE/Category/Length/94615/Feet/USD/1/boats.aspx

    So What is the way to evaluate of the motors, electronics, tanks, piping, gens, pumps and replaceable equipment and on the other hand how would I evaluate the hull along with superstructure and the good old 'carpentry'....cabinets, staterooms furniture, floors, etc'?

    Yours, Dizzy Alf
  15. JWY, Oct 6, 2009
    #15
    JWY

    JWY Senior Member

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    Evaluation comes from two sources: (1) Surveyors will give an assessment of condition on the hull, systems, and equipment. They will provide a market value but usually based on information from brokers directly or indirectly (2) brokers are able to give a market value based on the condition and equipping of the yacht combined with current sisterships for sale and the selling history of prices paid.

    Critical in your decision making process is an independent, qualified surveyor, one for the hull and equipment, and one for the engines and generator. On TTs (Taiwanese Trawlers/Tubs), I frequently recommended an additional electrical surveyor. You will want your hull surveyor to have extensive experience with TTs so that he will know their inherent weaknesses and how the particular vessel compares to the sisterships. Ditto for steel hulls which should require audiogauging. Make sure your surveyor is experienced with the particular manufacturer of the yacht he is surveying.

    JW
  16. Pascal, Oct 6, 2009
    #16
    Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    it's hard to put numbers line by line on the value of a boat... i think that you are overcomplicating things in your first post.

    yes, as you narrow your choices to a short list, you can compare similar boats by putting numbers on things lile engines, genset, canvas, etc...

    as to the Angel 54 or 56, I think the guy who's asking almost 200k here in the US for an over 20 year taiwan boat is kidding himself... problem with these boats as mentioned in previous replies is that quality varies depending on the yard which built them. Many 80s vintage taiwan boats share similar issues like blistering, fuel tanks, questionable electrics, ec...

    for instance, I can't imagine runnning the systems on a 50 footer on twin 30amps! if so, that's one cheap short cut the builder took and woudl be a warning flag. I can jsut get by on twin 50 amp service on my 53 when i have all 4 ACs running and i need to run the washer/dryer while cooking.

    As Jw mentioned, a surveyor and a good buyer broker will be able to help you determine the value, mostly the broker at this stage since you're not going to hire a surveyor until you really picked the boat. but the broker will have access to the actual selling prices and help you make an offer.

    i'm a little sceptical as to the accuracy of BUC, it's fine for smaller boat, high volume, but when you get in the 50 range, there isnt' enough sales to really make the statistical sample big enough.
  17. Marmot, Oct 6, 2009
    #17
    Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    In the 80s there weren't too many 50A marina outlets around and most boats weren't fitted with electric ranges, washer/dryers and an independent a/c in every room. Just because no one updated the electrics to match the modern definition of "must have" mod cons doesn't mean the builder was scrimping or taking shortcuts.
  18. Pascal, Oct 6, 2009
    #18
    Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    it's not a must have modern thing... look at most decent 50ish boats even from the 70s, they are 50amp power. Hatteras for one, Bertram, etc...

    you'll find very few quality 50 footers with 30ams service, regardless of age.

    heck, hatteras even provided multiple inlets, on each side of the boat, in many cases with both 50 and 30amp!
  19. yachtbrokerguy, Oct 6, 2009
    #19
    yachtbrokerguy

    yachtbrokerguy Guest

    The guide books for boat values like BUC are not very accurate for most boats. There was some accuracy for boat models in the past that were sold in large enough numbers and that were less than five years old. However in the current boat market prices have dropped faster than the books could keep up and boats over 15 years old are too different to set a guideline. A buyer should go on board as many boats as possible to get a feeling for what his money will buy.
    When looking at older boats try to find one that already has engines rebuilt or other equipment replaced rather than spending a lot to do it over yourself.
  20. Marmot, Oct 6, 2009
    #20
    Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    Maybe it's a regional thing then. On the west coast which was arguably the target market for the TTs, there were few marinas catering to larger yachts and 50A was not all that common.

    I am owned by an 80s vintage 48 foot TT and it also has originally installed double 30A inlets on each side that have never been converted to 50A as have some of the fleet. The thing has 3 a/c units that are cannot be run off shorepower simultaneously but can run off the genset. It's a small boat, not a condo so as far as power goes, it's just another compromise, not a defect. I could eliminate the issue with a lot of cash but I think I will continue to compromise.
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