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Who's Fault?

Discussion in 'General Yachting Discussion' started by Fishtigua, Oct 18, 2009.

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  1. Fishtigua

    Fishtigua Senior Member

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    A nice, well looked after 65' footer, which we serviced every year, has been sold. A new 85' has been ordered.

    So the new owner sent his delivery Skip over to pick her up, easy run.

    One engine over-heats. The dealer in the next marina says the headgasket has blown and screwed-up cylinder 2/3/5 and 6.

    Very worried, the old owner(faced with a $35,000 bill) phoned us to check some stats. The other dealer says that the download from the electronics says that the readout points to the engine running at @106 degrees for almost 11 minutes.

    I know its not our fault, but the delivery Skip just walked away and said it was a duff boat, the new owner wants his boat working.

    Any advice?
  2. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    Did you do work that caused the overheat, and if so when was that work done in relation to the incident? Was that work warrantied?
    11 minutes is a long time but circumstance (such as coming through a rough inlet) could make it necessary to keep it on or the alarm may not have sounded. Either way, without a statement from the skipper that puts him at fault, it all falls back on the owner. Which owner depends on who hired the skipper and were there any warranties. If sold "As is", and baring legal restrictions, it would probably fall on the new owner if he's taken possession (his skipper). Otherwise the old owner may have held onto her a little too long. To figure out that one is why the devil invented lawyers.
  3. Henning

    Henning Senior Member

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    Typically the sales contract will either specify "As Is Where Is" in which case when the paperwork was signed, the problem became the new owners. Either that or the contract will specify some form of warranty in which case you follow the guidelines of the warranty. Fault in this case would fall upon the delivery crew for not paying attention to the engine temp. It probably sucked up some flotsam into the water intake.
  4. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    No chance on the crew. 11 minutes may have been spent at idle holding position while checking the problem, running in rough water where losing the maneuverability could put the entire vessel at risk, turning it back on to maneuver into a slip or 100 other scenarios.
    Just caught that it was the new owner's skipper. The lawyers will have fun with this one unless old owner works it out, but "As is" are powerful words.
  5. CaptPKilbride

    CaptPKilbride Senior Member

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    One would assume the boat was surveyed and sea-trialled before the sale was completed, yes?
    If the sale transaction was completed, and the download from the electronics shows the overheat condition occurred after the sale was completed and while being operated by the new owner's skipper, the old owner has no responsibility.
  6. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    i think the key word here is NEW.

    "A new 85' has been ordered."

    new means there are warranties involved, so the "as is where is" part is irrelevant; unless fishtigua meant "new to him".

    It seems that the manufacturer will lay the blame on the captain and it's going to be hard for him to explain why the overheat alarm was ignored. 11 minutes is a long time unless there is a way to prove that the ECU recorded the overheat but the alarm didn't sound or the gauge didn't show it (good luck with that...)

    ASSuming the boat has twins, short of a dangerous inlet, I can't think of too many reasons why he coudn't have shut down the engine. even coming into a marina, you dont' leave an overheating engine running... you shut down and come in on one engine, you can always briefly restart if you really need the extra maneuvrability although an 85 footer is likely to have thrusters.

    If the conditions are tricky (current, high wind) you turn the boat around and head out to less restricted water on one engine to manage the problem; you dont' keep it running for 11 minutes.

    Woudl be interesting to know why he kept it running...
  7. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    I believe you misread. The problem was on the 65, not the new 85. I also totally disagree about the fault. 11 minutes is not a long time. Do we know if he was using that motor for power or simply idling it in case needed. It could easily take 11 minutes to enter a marina and get to and into the slip. If there is any danger from winds, current, or just tight circumstances the captain would be considered remiss for shutting the motor if he then hit another boat. If we're dealing with a professional I think our first assumption must be that he used his best judgement based on the circumstances and his experience. He may or may not have been right from the mechanics point of view, but that really doesn't matter.
  8. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    And that is the bottom line. There have been several instances where I watched the gentlemen on the bridge put the ship's propulsion at great risk in locations where its loss would have been a disaster. All I could do was inform them (play the role of an alarm) that they would lose propulsion in X minutes if they continued to do what they were doing. They are the ones who make the call and if the ship is not lost then they made the right call.

    In those cases it was not my job to save the engine, it was to keep it running as long as possible.
  9. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    sorry, my brain is frozen this morning... almost fell sliping on an icy foredeck! darn, i hate trick questions :)

    i dont see why the old owner is faced with the bill. If the deal was closed, it's all the responsibility of the new owner especially if the captain was hired by the new owner. Obviously, rules and customs may be different in europe (assuming that's where Fishtigua is) but here in the US, it will be up to the new owner to pay for the repairs unless he can prove the dealer/broker/previous owner knew about the problem.

    As to keeping an engine running for 11 minutes with the temp that high, you really need a good reason. this is not about trying to blame the captain since we dont' know the circumstances, but it always interesting to ask yourself "what would i do if?".

    In reasonable conditions, I woudl shut down and come in on one engine although it all depends on one's definition of "reasonable" and on how the boat handles on one engine. alternatively, i woudl turn turn the boat around then shut down and proceed to open waters to troubleshoot the problem. Maybe anchor outside the marina if there is room and attempt to fix the problem. Or make plan for a tow boat to assist once in the marina.
  10. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    Ouch!:eek: Hopefully those icy decks are gone by tomorrow morning.;) It should indeed be the new owner's responsibility, but most people don't give up $35,000 without some debate. Again, that's why the devil invented lawyers. Pay him $500, he makes a call, the old owner facing $5,000 to defend says he'll pay the first 3K. Does he owe it? Probably not, but it's cheaper than fighting and keeps everybody involved in the transaction feeling better. The captain of course will not see work from either of these parties again even if he did nothing wrong. Just an unfortunate boating incident and a good example of why I won't own those things.:cool:
  11. Henning

    Henning Senior Member

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    You've got a lot more faith in the average skipper in this business than I do brother. A good 75% of them are morons. I've got an owner in Glen Cove who's crying to me right now because I won't be over to do his delivery down south. I've been running for him for 8 years and have missed 4 trips in that time due to other commitments. Each time he's had delivery "skippers" either wreck or break down his boat.
  12. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    No I don't, but that fact is that the worst of them still give the boat a better chance than most owners on their own. Too many owners hire a guy because he claims to be a captain (some doing the work don't even have a license. I try to impress on owners to hire at least a 2nd issue and to check references. It does no good though. Most hear 'captain' and the fee and that's it. Consequently they get just what they bargain for. The cheap becomes expensive.
    BTW, if your owner runs around 23 kts and can be ready by tomorrow he's welcome to tag along behind me. If he's slower, Pascal is leaving about the same time. Both will be passing Glen Cove.
    It should also be noted that, although having an owner on board is a big babysitting job I still prefer it so he can see exactly what is going on and why things happen. Too often I get owners complaining about the amount of time the trip takes, and trying to get the delivery crews to push harder so they can save a day's pay. Again, the cheap becomes expensive. I had one who tried to call more than 10 times a day for updates (of course my phone just couldn't get a signal) and when I hit the dock in Lauderdale he was standing there putting his things on board while we were still tieing up. We arrived at 1800 and were on a flight back by 2100. I charged him for the travel day anyway since my day had started at 0500. He also never got my services again.
  13. BMS

    BMS Senior Member

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    Buying a used yacht is like buying an already lived in home. They are not new so you do the best you can to make sure either one is "sound". For a yacht you hire a surveyor and for a home an inspector. Even with this being done you can't see everything. If you bought a 10year old home today and the roof leaked tomorrow would the seller be expected to pay? I agree with Nycap 11 minutes is not along time if no aud or vis alarm sounded the skipper may not have noticed until it was too late. Even in the military where redundancy is life you only record the readings on your gauges and conduct engine room rounds every hour or 30 min if you are running extremely hard.
  14. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    That doesn't mean no one is continuously monitoring them and making operational decisions based on the readings. And thre are "log rounds" where the junior is recording the readings, and there are continuous walk-abouts to look, see, smell, and listen.

    The reason readings are recorded is for trend analysis .. and in some cases to make sure there is a written record to use as evidence in casualty analysis.
  15. Fishtigua

    Fishtigua Senior Member

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    The boat was over 3 years old when we started service it. Its had good treament by other yards too.

    The delivery skipper said he was running at cruise speed from a bit of weather when the overheat occurred. Now if the alarm went off on the oil temp/water temp/oil pressure senders, why did he not shut down the power earlier and not run it for 11 minutes? 2 sets of instruments, bridge and fly, would have sounded.

    Who; skipper, owner, deckhand, cook,the budgerigar keeper or ship's cat; would not shut off the power before 11 minutes had passed?

    I've had an overheat before and the 1st thing (human nature programs us for this) you do is shut down and go and check it out.
  16. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    Right O. Like the mirrors in you car you scan the gauges every few seconds. Sometimes though, as noted before it can be necessary to overwork a motor to keep the boat safe even if alarms are sounding. I had one boat this summer with a faulty fuel sender. You could check it when you first fired up, but soon after it would read zero and sound the alarm. Alarms only mean to check and assess the situation. They don't dictate the action to take.
  17. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    True enough, but you didn't say if he kept running at speed; shut down to check and then had to keep using it due to conditions or did he keep it shut and just fire it back up for the docking. Again, 11 minutes sounds like a long time until you actually time what it takes to enter a marina and get it into the slip. Let's assume that he shut down within 2 minutes of over heating (30 seconds after the alarm sounded). He doesn't find a clog or other visable problem and so fires back up and idles to see if the temp goes back down when he's not pushing so hard (3 minutes at idle). Then he fires back up at idle as he enters the marina for maneuvering (5 minutes til in slip). That's 10 of the 11 minutes and only the first 2 were pushing. Of course that's only one of hundreds of possible scenarios, but you see the point. Plus, the damage most likely was done before the alarm even sounded, especially if he was pushing. Of course if they had an engineer on board the captain would have a better assessment of his motor situation, but I doubt the owner would spring for that. Some captains are better than others and some are better mechanics than others (remember, mechanics is not their primary job). If I knew as much about motors, etc. as K1W1 and Marmot I'd gladly leave the running of the boat to some captain.;)
  18. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    Which alarm was triggered, oil temp, water temp, oil pressure? All or both? Was the power reduced to see if it cooled off? Was the temperature really high or was it a phantom alarm? Where was the boat and what was going on? Did the temperature go high because the head gasket failed or did the gasket fail due to high coolant temperture? Was there a coolant loss or a loss of seawater circulation? Chicken or egg guys, don't be in such a hurry to hang one of your own, you could be the next in line for your own gallows.

    The captain may well be an idiot, too many of them are, but unlike others here I don't know what happened so can only ask questions. Ask the captain, he was there. Without his input this conversation can't really go very far.
  19. Fishtigua

    Fishtigua Senior Member

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    Hi Marmot,




    Chicken or egg? I'm just the turkey in the middle. The engine's electronics do not say which sender yelped first, they're a bit old tech but a good, reliable motor non the less. Yes the engine was running at cruise revs for the full 11 minutes.

    Emails are flying between owners, brokers, yards and lawyers. It will be interesting to see how this goes. I'll keep you informed as I get info.

    Fish
  20. CaptTom

    CaptTom Senior Member

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    It doesn't say what type of engines these are, or the operating temprature range, but an engine running at 106-degrees doesn't seem like an overheating situation to me. Wouldn't an overheat be at least 175 or higher? It's been a while since I stuck my finger into a diesel heat enchange or radiator (on trucks), but 106 is barely a burn.
    What am I missing?

    Oh yeah, sold "as is" is usually the statement that says once you take the keys, old owner is not liable for anything. And I'll assume that an engine survey was done and if so, probably should have caught this if it happened under the old owners watch. Good luck.