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RPM/Knots Per Hour/GPH Burn Rate/MPG/Total Range

Discussion in 'General Yachting Discussion' started by av8tor69r, Jan 28, 2022.

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  1. av8tor69r

    av8tor69r New Member

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    I'm new to powerboats after owning sailboats for decades. When my wife and I were looking for a powerboat, there was a lot to consider based on what we wanted to do. Creature features, layout, heads, galley, etc., were aspects my wife focused on. I was interested in systems, including power, electrical, water maker, generator, etc. Comprehensive boat performance data (beyond manufacturer brochures) were areas I found lacking. Brokers rarely had the info with all the boats out there.

    In any case, we ended up with a 59 Marquis (twin 825 hp MTUs). Yes, there are better and worse boats out there, but this one works well for us. Below is the actual performance data (nonscientific and rough) for our boat based on RPMs on a recent run.

    As you can see, from about 1550 RPMs on up to about 2200 RPMs, Nautical Miles Per Gallon (NMPG) and related Total Range sort of flattens out - they don't change hugely. Does this make any sense? Am I missing something? For longer cruises, we run at 1300 (about 60%). Not breaking any speed records, but fast enough for us… Any comments or help with this analysis are appreciated. Would love to look at similar real data you may have for your boat.

    View attachment 95280

    Attached Files:

  2. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    It s all wrong.

    there are two speeds that make sense on a power boat. Hull speed or on plane. Hull speed is 1.3 x sq root of LWL... which on your boat will be 9.5 knots.

    either you run at or just below that speed or you get on plane which likely will be about 17/18 kts. I ran a friends 59 Marquis a few years ago and it was a decent running boat.

    Go just one knot over hull speed and fuel burn will double. Let me say this again... 10% more speed for 100% more fuel, does it make sense ?

    look at your own numbers... your best speed for economy will be 1100 rpm Not 1167. At 1100 you should Burn about 10/12 GPH or just under 1 nmpg.

    Anything in between and you ll be pushing a big wake, burning a ton more fuel and loading up your engines. 1300 is just about the worst possible speed.

    Now looking at your numbers you have a serious problem there if your max RPM is 2206. Your engines should turn 2300 / 2325 at WOT. Being short 100rpm is a big deal that will affect the longevity of your engines.

    i don’t recall the exact numbers of that 59 I ran, but at 1900 or so, the MTUs where running 70% load or so and 21 knots. Something is wrong there. Either your boat is dirty, or you have another issue but this kind of overload is bad.

    for comparison I just got back from Staniel Cay Exumas to Miami yesterday, burning just under 500 gallons to cover 240 nm at 11 kts. With a 110 footer running a pair of 16V2000 MTUs. Basically the same as your 1300 rpm speed in a boat half the size. Think about it.
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  3. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    Ok, I'll start with your chart since you say you're new and wanting to learn. Picky but here goes.
    -We'd never look at % of RPM, only % of load and I'll discuss that further later.
    -RPMs isn't correct as a term. RPM is already plural.
    -KNOTS per hour is also a "no" as a knot is a nautical mile per hour.
    -Rounding makes numbers look equal when they are not
    -Generally one shows range in a chart at 90% of fuel. Just be aware you're overstating range.

    Now, to the meat.

    I will try not to duplicate Pascal too much, but here are some comments.

    -Your numbers are all over the place and clearly more guess than estimate. You say actual performance date but don't indicate how done. However, just a simple example. You show .28, .31, .32, and .26 on your last four nmpg. Illogical.
    -Now let's talk load which is what you should be using rather than % of RPM. Load is measured by many modern engines. The best way to approximate is by % of fuel consumption. So taking 88 gallons as WOT, then 68 gallons would be about 77% load and that's a much bigger load difference than I'd expect at those levels.
    -Your boat isn't performing as I'd expect. First, you need an extra 100 RPM. Then I'd expect something in the area of 28 knots at WOT. I haven't run a 59' Marquis, but a 65' Pacific Mariner with the same engines I was once on, hit 30 knots and 28 was common. I would also expect you at 22 knots to get about 0.4 nmpg.

    I'm not criticizing your boat and glad you're enjoying it. However, if you're going to try these charts you need Maretron or similar to collect data and you need to look at loads too, if possible. It's nice you enjoy running it as it performs. However, I would encourage you to get it checked further. Could be dirty bottom, damaged props, or engine not in optimal tune and performance. Just looking closely now, may prevent problems in the future.

    As to what I'd expect to see in a curve, I'll share one of ours on MTU engines, larger engines but larger boat. 85' Pacific Mariner with 1500 hp MTU's.

    upload_2022-1-28_22-13-12.png
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  4. mapism

    mapism Senior Member

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    Below is my 2c, related to a boat which is slightly smaller than yours (56'), and powered by 800hp MAN engines.
    The problem with old school mechanical engines like these is that neither the real time fuel burn nor the load are available.
    Actually, additional fuel flow measurement instruments like Floscan or Maretron could monitor the former, but I don't have them, so there is necessarily a degree of estimation in my table.
    On the other hand, I could check the numbers below over several years by now, and I'm confident that they are reliable enough.

    Now, I believe that when you are talking of 825hp MTUs, you are referring to their Series 60 engines, which as I recall were driven by electronic DDEC governor, but I can't recall which numbers are available on their instruments.
    I suppose you would have shown the load in your table if available, because the RPM % is meaningless, as others already mentioned.
    Though it's interesting the 96% associated to 2209 RPM, because it suggests you are aware that the engines are actually rated for 2300.
    Now, if the boat does reach 2300, but you just didn't include it in the table, fine.
    If not, the previous comments on the missing 100 RPM remain valid.
    Anyway, I added the two last columns on the right to my usual table, just to show you how useless the RPM % as an indicator of engine load.

    [​IMG]

    PS: ref. your question about NMPG flattening out once the boat is on the plane, generally speaking that is normal for most planing boats.
    In some boats - usually those with waterjet or surface drive transmissions - the fuel burn per Nm can even slightly improve with speed.
    So, the small inconsistencies in your numbers can well be just a matter of roundings, but in principle I don't think you should worry about them.
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2022
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  5. mapism

    mapism Senior Member

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    Fully agreed.
    In the OP boots, based on his numbers, I would either cruise under 1100 or anywhere between 1800 and 2000.
  6. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    I just realized I had sea trial data from the 84 I used to run. I didn’t bother writing data between 1000 and 1500 rpm as it was useless at these speed

    this was in calm water and fairly shallow (10/12’). Planning performance would be about 5-10% lower offshore.

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  7. av8tor69r

    av8tor69r New Member

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    Big thank you to Pascal, Mapism, and Olderboater. Olderboater your instincts are correct - The bottom of the boat was in poor shape when the data was collected. Since data collection, the bottom has been repainted, props cleaned up, etc. I also get the RPM increments of data collection should be equal (say 100, 200, 250, etc.) for comparison. Thanks too for the lesson to not use RMP percentage but rather % of fuel consumption. Mapism, No, I didn't include WOT on my chart. I'll check that next time and include on the table. Thanks for pointing out the NMPG flattening out once the boat is on the plane. Interesting concept. I’ll redo my table with all of this in mind. From Pascal's comment, using the hull speed calculation of HS = 1.34 x sq rt of 59 = 10.3 kts, which isn’t too far off my 1300 RPM cruise. I get the point that anything above the hull speed (10.3 kts) is counter efficient and pushes against the bow wave. Thanks again for the help!!
  8. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    Again, hull speed is 1.3 the sq. root of LWL. NOT the typical inflated LOA... check the specs for your boat but I doubt your waterline length is longer than 52 or 53’

    At 53’ LWL your hull speed will be 9.5 which is very different from the 10.6 kts you re getting at 1300. As in TWICE THE FUEL different...

    You need to understand hull speed is like a wall. Once you hit it, you have to jump over it...
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  9. av8tor69r

    av8tor69r New Member

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    Got it. Of course, you are right! I'll refigure. Thanks for your patience with a newbe!! That's a great way to look at hull speed as "a wall" to stay behind or jump over! That's a Pascal quotable!! :)
  10. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    Or blast through it, but any way you do it will take power and fuel.
  11. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    [​IMG]
    Waterline length in feet. Speed thru the water in knots.
    One warm day I have to get in the water with a plastic tape.
    Our 58 x 18' fat Bertram will have a taller Lwl than the usual 16' wide skinny girls.
    I'm guessing 54 feet. 9.8kts.
    I like to run @10 kts over the bottom. I know where I am by looking at a clock.
    For gpm (gallons per mile), this sux.
    My fuel consumption is notably lower @ 8 kts thru the water, sometimes at slow as 5 over the bottom. 5kts sux also, but half the GPM.

    When pushing for range, LSD (Long-range Slow-speed Displacement angle) is the plan.
    That's when Josie drives a lot.
    I'm dragging some spoons or napping. :rolleyes:
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  12. av8tor69r

    av8tor69r New Member

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    Yes! I like it. You guys are the best!! ;)
  13. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    Our boats model is very popular for cockpit extensions. After conversions, these Berts go faster and better GPM.
    Keep trying to talk Josie into an extension. No luck yet.
  14. mapism

    mapism Senior Member

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    I would add a couple of things to what Pascal correctly pointed out.

    First, as I recall the Marquis 59 has an overhanging swim platform, which adds nothing to the waterline length.
    So, I suspect the actual LWL might be even less than what Pascal envisaged - a 50' ballpark would be my estimate.
    But as he said, check the builder's specs (if available - not all builders declare LWL).

    Second, the theoretical rule for hull speed is just that, theoretical.
    I'm not saying it's wrong, but hull speed can actually be stretched or reduced by other factors, for any given LWL, depending on the specific hull shape.
    Typically, hull specifically designed for displacement cruising are slightly more efficient (i.e. faster) than planing hulls of the same LWL.
    And the only way to estimate that (other than fuel burn) is look behind you, and see your own wake.

    As an example, I cruised for many years with a 53' pure displacement trawler, whose LWL was just a few inches short of 50'. Which by coincidence, is almost exactly the same of my current (planing) 56 footer.
    Now, the first left behind her a significant wake already at 8.5 kts.
    She could cruise all day at 9.5 anyway, which was her "theoretical" hull speed, but I very rarely did that, because I saw no point in trading a 12% time saving for a 50+% worse NMPG.
    This might lead you to think that she wasn't very efficient, but my current 56' planing boat is actually worse in this respect, because at 8 kts, her wake is already more substantial compared to my previous trawler at 8.5 kts.
    Not that I care, because cruising at D speed with a planing boat is a PITA anyway, and in fact now I rarely cruise under 20 kts.

    Bottom line, if (as you said in your OP) slow cruising speed is fast enough for you, I wouldn't even bother calculating more accurately what your theoretical hull speed is, but I'd rather look behind the boat and see how the wave changes every half a knot, because that's the simpler and most immediate indicator of the speed each boat is happy to cruise at effortlessly.
    You might be surprised.
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2022
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  15. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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  16. mapism

    mapism Senior Member

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    Yes, it is very close, and I didn't say it isn't.
    But what the rule defines is the maximum hull speed, and my point was that the most efficient (meant as best NMPG) speed is always a bit under the theoretical hull speed.
    And for any given LWL, this most efficient speed can be slightly different for each boat, depending mostly on the hull type.
    In fact, I was talking of half a knot differences, which is not much, but it can and does make a difference in NMPG, hence range.
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  17. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    Indeed the formula is general and there will be variations depending on exact hull shape. That it was always spot on for everybody i ve run with flow meters

    an extra half a knot above HS usually costs at least 25% fuel economy
  18. StillLearning

    StillLearning Member

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    I read a lot on here, but haven't posted in years. This thread grabbed me since I have the same boat/engines.

    Appreciate the discussion.

    Couple of things I have observed, may just be specific to my situation.

    Clean bottom, running gear make a huge difference on this boat. I know it impacts any boat, but this hull seems to amplify.

    Amount of fuel I am carrying seems to make an impact. Our typical cruising area is 150 miles along the coast, so we are running anywhere from 800 gallons to maybe 300 gallons.
  19. rtrafford

    rtrafford Senior Member

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    I'd add that to determine the optimum outcome, run the formula to calculate the target RPM, but start logging the sea trial perhaps 200 RPM below that target, and log increments of perhaps 25RPM leading up to and just beyond that target. Your optimum outcome will be reasonably obvious.