Purchasing a new yacht...

Normally the replacement price is higher than the market value of a pre-owned yacht. As you have probably seen, the power options and a lot of interior fittings and electronics cost extra and on the other side you have to consider the age and wear of the yacht as compared to a new. It shouldn´t be impossible to get the original bill on such a recent boat, but the market value is still what you are prepared to pay for the boat.
A good broker who likes to have repeat clients should guide both the seller and the buyer to the right price...

I can understand your frustration, but there is still an open question what you are prepared to pay. You give the offer to the broker and there the negotiation starts. If you look at the yacht market, it is something in between used cars and real estate. Small cruisers have almost fixed price lists as used, whereas a nice Feadship usually gains more than her original price. And the rest is in between and what one person want, the other don´t. So nobody can ever tell you what is the right price, only you, by comparing as you are doing and eventually find what you want and trying to get it as cheap as you can. That is the process and many loves it, eventhough it can be frustrating to not have a firm price list at hand.
But again, this is what the broker should help you with, and by choosing the right broker and letting him do the legwork for you, it would be much easier. You don´t have to shop around yourself, this is what brokers are there for. I have worked as both a buyers broker and a sellers, and I prefer to be the buyers..

It is very difficult, or close to impossible, to tell any new price of a yacht of considerable size. List prices do exist only in theory but are never paid and that is a certainty.
It depends also on the negotiation skills of the respective buyers/clients, but it is always quoting and being counterquoted - it depends on the cash-flow situation of the Yard also - there are literally a zillion factors that can and may play a decisive role. It is as much as in real business a matter of tactics also.

There is another important thing that plays in my opinion a role: a brand new boat is a far cry from being perfect - as it is mostly or in all events a handmade job; so many imperfections have crouched in during the process of making the boat.
It is not exeptional that a yard has 10 pages of corrections to do; that may run
into small booklets when you are talking yachts with serious dimensions.

In that respect it is sometimes even better to buy a second hand or "pre-owned" yacht. Free (mostly) from imperfections - and lots of money spend on maintainance and upgrading.

It depends greatly on the procuring skills of the prospect buyers/clients - are they serious, can they make a spot decision - can they work without a bank credit (which asks time).
If you really want to pay the ultimate minimum start to clear your bankfacilities in the first place and in such a way that you have immediate access to your funds.
If the broker/owner is aware of this fact than he/she will certainly be open for serious negotiation.

I know cases of brokers buying brand new yachts against yard-prices and reselling later with profits of several 100 K's as they paid the yard in hard cash.

The best way to operate for any prospect buyer is to approacht a number of suppliers of similar boats asking for a quotation. In that particular way a general price for the going yacht can be established, take from that amount about 10% margin and you may (not guaranteed) approach a correct yardprice.
The same situation counts for pre-owned yachts. Check a number of boats that are offered on the open market. Then a general line will become visible.
Believe me, brokers are there to sell boats and as long as you are serious and you can pay for your deal, your boat is waiting for you.

We are now in a thread concerning Horizon Yachts and this is not the right place to compare to others I think. Can only say that many of the Horizons are designed by a fellow-Swede and from what I have seen are good quality and can be compared to Italian boats of the same size.

Maybe we should post this topic of buying yachts in the General discussion area?

Thank you Lars!

This thread is being moved to the "General Yachting Discussion" forum, as the direction of the thread does not concern Horizon. More importantly, Horizon is building one of the highest quality yachts in the industry and although every newly built yacht has a few bugs to work out (this is NORMAL), I sincerely beleive Horizon's product is as close as you get to turn-the-key and cruise.

I agree with you Lars, BTW I fell in love with a Frers 50, however, although her price is affordable and acceptable, she is on the other end of the world.
I will buy her, no doubt (I hope the guy selling her is not reading this): Jackson, it is not always a matter of money, more what you feel.

I had for more than 20 years racehorses (another hole in the water where you poor money in) lots of money in that hobby before I bought my first yacht. It is all emotions but keep your head clear.

Cheers!

An attempt to a short description on how to buy a yacht.

As a boat buyer, especially when buying a yacht bigger than you have ever had before, you are likely to get in touch with a yacht broker and a surveyor. The yacht brokerage is there to sell or to help you buy or build a yacht and they do this on a commission from the seller, often shared by other brokers involved in the same deal. This means that you don´t have to be your own broker, it is better to find someone you trust.

When you find a yacht, pre-owned, and would like to make an offer, you can do this at any level and normally you get a counter-offer. This way you will establish a price and you must then pay a downpayment of normally 10 percent.

After that you call for a surveyor, (on your expense) they are normally certified and insured and you take the boat out of the water to inspect the hull. Fibreglass boats for osmosis and steel or alu for corrosion that can be measured. Also props, rudders and stabilizers if such is fitted.

Then the surveyor will go through the entire yacht, inspecting tanks, engines and everything. Finally you will make a sea trial, sometimes you do this before when you are going to the shipyard. When all this is done, you are likely to have a list of faults that has a price to adjust. At this point, both the buyer and the seller have the right to refuse the deal if there are too many and costly problems with the yacht. But in most case you deduct some or all of the estimated costs from the offered purchase price and this will be the final price to pay before taking delivery.

Nobody has to buy a yacht without knowing what he or she is buying and for the broker this is the normal way of acting, so you don´t even have to ask about it. Then there are many other aspects, like financing, insurance, registering and such that the broker will help you with and on even bigger yachts he can recruite the crew and manage chartering...

Like d´Artois pointed out, not two boats are the same, even coming from the same series of production boats. To compare brands is therefore not really fair or even correct since they could be built to very different specifications depending of the original buyer. Also the use can have been very different and the "good brand" boat can be in a worse condition than the less good brand.

But of course there are different levels of quality and image that influence the price and this is where your own preferences are of importance, how much you will use the yacht, where and for what. Decisions, decisions....

Buyers and sellers

Normally a seller adds all costs over the years on top of the purchasing price.
Lets say:
2002 purchase price 2000000 for a new yacht.
2 years Mooring 100000
2 Years Crew 80000
2 Years Service / Maintainance 250000 to hold the Yacht in perfect condition
2 Years insurance and other expenses
like water toys, newest Navigation equipment, etc. 100000

Sales Price 2004 : 2530000
and of course the broker wants to earn his 5-10% ( 7.5 = around 200000 )

Here we are : 2,72 Mio. ( only as an example calculation )

So normally a professional buyer offers 70 % of the first asking price and
the negotiation begins.

My experience shows that sometimes it is better to buy a used boat where the startup problems are finished and the Yacht is in useable conditions for your holidays. But dont forget to use a surveyor before buying.
It will be also usefull to charter the Yacht for 1 or 2 weeks before buying.
This is the most efficient way to see if this yacht is your dream or will be your
nightmare.

For once, I disagree a little with you Crewagency...

This idea of adding previous running costs on the purchase price is new to me and I don´t think it is normally used.

The other idea of chartering before purchase is perhaps a good advise, but only if you are keeping your intention of purchase secret. The crew can otherwise play a too big part in making you like or dislike the yacht depending on their future situation. As a broker I am also thinking of how things out of human control, like the weather, can affect the impression of a yacht or yachting in general if you are not experienced.

What I am trying to say is that a bad boat can be a dream, versus a good becoming a nightmare with the wrong circumstances during the charter.

But I agree with you that a boat that has been shaken down a couple of seasons is normally a better deal than a new, if you like it as it is fitted out so you don´t have to invest too much in changing interior and equipment.

Crew

Jackson,

my experience in the Crew business shows that it is not a good idea to employ only one Crew on a MY bigger than 80 feet also over 100 feet you have to employ minimum 3 - 4 to hold a Yacht in perfect conditions. Sure this depends also on the time you spend on board and how much you want to be pampered.
Also Lars ( AMG ) is right that you should not show any interest to buy a Yacht to the Crew. ( If they know that you will buy their boat they might think of loosing their job and might tell you lies about the boat conditions to stay on board for the future )

Sure that brokers are good poker players ! but also some owners or buyers know how to play this game

Please also put an eye on the current destination of the Yacht you want to buy and the future sailing area you prefer. This is sometimes very intersting for additional electrical equipment you might have to install like converters for shore power etc and also for Telecommunication, Internet, Plotters etc. in your prefered area. There are many differences between Europe and USA.

There is a saying, (I just made it up) that it is better to buy a good boat at a bad price, than a bad boat at a good price...

Or like Artois is saying, the heart has to be involved as well. If you have four boats you consider equally good, of course you buy the cheapest. But if you like one better than the other, isn´t it justified to pay more?

In my opinion - as long as your boatdimension stays within the limit of say max 80' you may need nobody, it depends of course on your ability and if you are willing to act as captain/skipper.
If you would like to enjoy boating without the requirements of being occupied with
navigation and actual driving the boat , in that case becomes the availability of a skipper very handy. Even a 80' yacht becomes small when there are a lot of people on board and most of those yachts are not really equipped to cater for more than 6 pax and 1 crew.

It depends all on you, your skills and of course, your requirements.

I'll second the opinion of buying a - preowned yacht. That, I have already pointed before. Only when this particular boat was owned by an experienced principal and have been cared for meticulously and as such you might be assured that all deflects have been faded out.

Make a list - with your wife. She is the most important person on board. Listen to her and give full attention to her opinion. This was the first lesson I had to learn when I became professional involved in yachts.

Then, go for the boat you like. Not number 2, not number 3, because they are cheaper or whatever else.

Appoint a surveyor, a good one - not a recommended one, but one you found yourself, let him scrutinise the boat with the emphasis on the electrical part, in most cases the Achilles heel of any boat.

With this outcome you are prepared for the battle with the broker or whoever might be responsible for the sale.

Bonne chasse