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Noobie fantasy, flaming aloud

Discussion in 'General Yachting Discussion' started by Dark horse, Jul 6, 2024.

  1. Dark horse

    Dark horse Member

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    I’m proceeding down a plan that probably is a mistake, but maybe with help here, I can make it less so.

    let’s begin with backround.
    All boating experience is 20’ and under. I’m retired. I have always had an interest in boats/water. My wife loves the water also and dreams of living by the sea. All the bills are paid and we have some disposable cash. I am extremely mechanically inclined to the point where I can fix anything. (Not that I’m looking for a job)

    Initial research.
    Originaly, we looked into buying a yacht and docking at a marina. A couple of things come to mind. I have no illusions that we will cruise the world, in fact, I expect the boat will be tied to the dock most of the time. This is not a bad thing as we live an hour drive to the ocean, so the boat would be a “beach house”. We could also let friends and relatives use it for weekends and such. The one thing I found in research was boats seem to be a bad investment and of course the monthly dock fee is money gone forever.

    The new plan.
    We ended up buying an acre of land on a large bay that is part of the inter coastal. It’s very secluded with its own beach. It’s very beautiful and we probably will build a house here eventually. Right now I just want to see if the water life is for us. So I had a well drilled and a power pole installed. We are currently having a dock built. As you probably guessed, we are looking at yachts now. Once we get one, we can dock for free and the property is allready worth more than we paid.

    The boat.
    We have a list of “must haves” and determined that we need a 40’ to 60’ boat. Prices on new boats are out of the question and the depreciation is far too steep anyways. So here comes my first question. How old is too old? This boat will probably never see open ocean. We might cruise a 100 miles one way or the other from our dock, but that’s about it. What about a boat with one engine down? If I stay in the inter coastal, would it be crazy? (There are some cheap boats like this)

    The other thing I want to ask about is Insurance. Does everybody run it?. I hate insurance and prefer not have it. (Another monthly bill) This would limit the purchase price to less than a $100,000. (I’m not going to spend what I can’t afford to lose) I would prefer to spend more like half of that. Is it feasible to get a semi seaworthy boat for $60,000 that’s nice. I see some advertised, but havnt really checked them out.

    How important is a survey? Does anybody just do their own with a list of things to check? I have some other stupid questions, but that’s probably enough for now.
  2. Norseman

    Norseman Senior Member

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    A survey is always recommended, unless you willingly buy a wreck or a project boat for next to nothing.
    Also, most insurance companies require a recent survey before you can bind coverage.
    You are not the first one who are thinking about bypassing the house and just live on a cheap boat.
    Some counties in Florida won’t allow a boat at a dock with an empty lot (No house) at least that was the rule when I had a waterfront lot in Fort Lauderdale.
    Soo, what boat to get?
    I big $60k boat you can live on?
    Most cheap boats are old and not maintained: If the cosmetics are ignored it is good chance the mechanical and electrical equipment also has a ton of deferred maintenance, therefore get a good surveyor who can tell you exactly what you are getting into.

    IF it was me, I would build a house and get a smaller boat for a hobby and for pleasure, rather than a big derelict live-aboard maintenance nightmare boat.
    Sorry for being the bearer of bad news,:cool:
    wiredup and MM3 like this.
  3. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    We gave up on dock rentals and the restrictions involved.
    Your thinking and good luck (lot with good water) will pay for itself quickly and save many sanity hairs.
    Sanitation will be an issue.
    You will need to install MSD 1 or 2.
    Black water tanks fill up quickly.

    Include in your must haves, lots of storage.
    Living aboard takes storage.
    After 20 years on our 58 Bert, We moved back on land at our own house and dock.
    The new house was suddenly used up; 2 bed rooms, a shop, and the carport were suddenly full of clothes, tools, spare parts, pet supplies.
    The boat came out of the water 3+ inches.
    Our friend has a 65. No and poor storage.

    Oh, Our 58 Bert is 46 years old. Solid, original engines, strong as new.
    Another member has a 53 that is older and after repower/remodel rivals anything new.
    I have witness much younger boats crumble up in 10 years.

    Insurance, Yes. Not for your investment protection but the liability coverage.
    Most marinas will not let you tie up without it also.
    You will never get into a service yard with out it either.
    Consider incorporating your boat for personal protection also.


    Survey?? I would not buy a canoe without a survey.

    Your shopping for an older boat.
    It's going to take a couple of surveyors. Boat, Mechanical and maybe Air conditioning (your in shallow water, Florida).

    If your not going to travel the world? Put a house on that lot and get another 20+ footer.
    Sometimes, Sometimes, Sometimes I really think I should have done that. I could be rich and famous now :p:p.
  4. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    We had the same problem in Jax.

    So our north side river house, my wife's father lived in the house. We stayed on the dock. Worked great.

    The further in the woods and swamps, the counties are not as stuck up or full of themselves and get lax on this stuff.
  5. Dark horse

    Dark horse Member

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    I checked and we can live on the dock.
    But we have no intention of living aboard. (Other than for weekend or so) We are keeping our current house. The only way we would sell it is after we build a new house down there.

    On the insurance issue, can you get just liability insurance? Is it very reasonable? As far as docking at a marina, are they going to check insurance when stopping for fuel? I don’t see us going to a marina. For example, I imagine going to Destin and anchoring in the harbor. Then we would take a dingy to shore for dinner. Back to the yacht to sleep. Is that not feasible?
  6. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    Insurance, yes you can have liability only. Much cheaper. Marinas only requires proof of insurance on long term contracts, not as transients.

    survey: boats in that size range have complex systems which you don’t know anything about… yes, survey is a must especially in your case

    Boat age: not as important as quality and maintenance / upgrade. I ll take a an 40-50 years old well maintained Bertram or Hatteras over a 10 year old carver…

    running on one engine is ok in an emergency. Maneuvering a twin engine boat on one engine isn’t easy…

    you seem to think seaworthiness to go offshore is all matters. Wrong. It s also all the other systems like air con, electrical, plumbing, generator etc…

    anchoring and heading ashore with a dinghy is fine in some a places more difficult in others due to the lack of dinghy docks or place to land and leave a dinghy.
  7. Dark horse

    Dark horse Member

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    When you say “complex systems I don’t know anything about”, I’m thinking what systems? Motors, transmissions, air conditioning, plumbing, electrical, generators? I know a lot about all that stuff.

    I had an owner of a yacht I’m considering send me a survey she had done on the boat. It was a very complete list, but the checks by the survey guy were very simplified. Like the generator wouldn’t start. Doesn’t say if it turn over or getting fuel or 12 volts anything. If I was there checking that, I would know more than what he told me. I’m inclined to use her survey as a guide to do my own.

    Funny you mention Hatteras, that is the brand I have been most impressed with. But that is from a layout and styling prospective. When it comes to age, I’ve heard in smal boats there was point in the late 80’s where most manufacturers went to all fiberglass. Obviously, there were lots of fiberglass boats before that for many years, but apparently, they had wood structure in cased in fiberglass. The wood could rot out and leave a weak boat. Once they went to all glass, this problem was all but gone. How about big boats? Is there anything like this I should be looking out for?
  8. Dark horse

    Dark horse Member

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    So what’s the rules about a mooring bouy? Let’s say you drop a chunk of cement in the water with a line to a float. That way it’s there to moor to whenever you need it. Obviously, you wouldn’t want it in the middle of a shipping lane or channel. My property is along the intercostal, but it’s a long way from the shore to the channel. (More than a mile) If I put a bouy halfway, would I be inviting legal trouble? How much cement would it take to assure a boat would not drag it.
  9. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    Your first post mentioned experience with 20 footers which have none of systems like air con, water pumps, electrical power, generator, multiple battery banks etc.

    a survey will only indicate whether something works or doesn’t. A surveyor will not troubleshoot anything… not his job nor is it his job to guess repair costs.

    as to construction, most boat builders went to fiberglass in the early 60s. Yes some used some
    Type of wood in certain area, called core, most all to save weight. Hatteras for instance used balsa core in decks at least into the 90s if not the 2000s. Some builders also cored the hull sides as well. Others cored the whole hull including the bottom, Lazzara for
    Instance. When properly build, balsa cored boats have advantages… the problem is when builders cut corners when building the boats or when yards and mechanics start drilling holes and not taking the proper precautions
  10. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    Rules vary by state, county and municipality. In most cases a permit will be required.

    It also depends on the bottom… mud… sand… rock.. different bottom will require different type of moorings ranging from big mushroom anchors to hélicoïdal anchors drilled into the bottom.

    DYI concrete block? That could work if allowed. Again impossible to say how heavy it would have to be without knowing the boat size and location incl how exposed it it
  11. Dark horse

    Dark horse Member

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    Is the inter coastal ruled by the state? I thought that would be federal. Another stupid question. I’ve heard you can travel the entire east coast on the inter coastal. Is this true? It would seem like you would have to go off shore some places.

    Sorry for all the questions, I know I’m being a PITA. But I’m learning a lot here quick.
  12. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    The INTRA coastal is maintained by the feds but adjacent waters are under the jurisdiction of states / counties / towns

    The Atlantic ICW runs from Key West to Norfolk VA and you can run its entire length.

    rhe New Jersey ICW runs from Cape May to … about 40nm south of sandy hook. Forgot which inlet, manasquan? But most of it is too shallow for anything hut small outboard boats.

    on the gulf side, the Gulf ICW runs from Carabelle FL all the way to Brownsville TX. There is also a stretch along the gulf coast between Naples FL to north of Clearwater
    Dark horse likes this.
  13. Cpt Sous-Leau

    Cpt Sous-Leau Member

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    OP, I'm kind of in the same 'boat' as you are, with just being retired, and looking at larger boats to enjoy some time on the water. I've had experience with 16 to 37' boats, and I'm in the process of trying to be a 56' boat right now. You can read my experience with purchasing in the 'AITAH here?'.

    Survey, you don't need to get one, but if you defer it, you'll be working on your boat constantly, and while you might be saving labor costs, the parts and support might be incredibly high. Plus, if you are trying to relax, working on the AC in July, with your wife standing over you is going to destroy any fun for that month. I've had 2 different boats fail survey, and I'm about to have my 3rd failed survey tomorrow. Losing $2000 to learn that a half mil boat isn't up to par is a small price to pay for the knowledge gained. Can you detect hull delamination? Can you determine a failing gear drive? Are you going to get oil samples from the engine, gen, and trans or just roll the dice?

    How old a boat. I would(and may) trust a 20 year old Carver if it will pass the sea trial. Even a Bertram can have a weak keel, even a Freeman could have a sagging engine mount. It's about condition. You can only know this stuff with a survey or go it your own way.

    It's not easy to advise, but you might do well with a 36-40' boat for the two of you, and move up later. We bought a 37' Sea Ray to learn on, and that has been a steep learning curve as well. I have no idea about your FL land, and access, and dockage, etc. I've been on segments of the Intracoastal around Houston area, and it's just a big wet ditch. There's little or no non-commercial reason to operate there except for the safety aspect. Not much to see, not much to do, no swimming, probably lousy fishing as well.

    Good luck, I hope you succeed. It's a minefield out there in the marine enviro, and does not suffer fools easily.
  14. Dark horse

    Dark horse Member

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    I’ve been reading your thread. Thanks for the info.
  15. Dark horse

    Dark horse Member

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    So let me ask you point blank, if it was you, not me, would you flat out refuse to drive a boat a couple hundred miles on one engine? (Never leaving sight of shore) Are they that hard to maneuver?

    There are couple boats with one engine down. I’m sure I can fix them, but I’m not working out of town. If I can get it home, I can take my time.
  16. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    Rite.
    You are going to diagnose thoroughly and completely the malfunction and fix it?
    Based on what?
    A few hours of your time in the bilges guessing??
    Taking somebody else's word that it's just a minor issue?
    Oh, it was pickled??

    Always make the seller deliver running engines.

    After taking these dives my self, keep walking & shopping.
    There is no saving$ here.
  17. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    running offshore on a straight line on one engine is no big deal. The problem is close quarter maneuvering, coming in and out of a marina, waiting for bridges etc.

    i ve had to run on one engine over the years for various reasons and made it without damaging the boats . Wasn’t always pretty though :)

    it s also a lot easier with a bow thruster …

    just for kicks, here is a video of getting the boat I run in and out of the yard on one engine a couple of years ago.

  18. Dark horse

    Dark horse Member

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    I assume the worst and hope for the best. I’ve not run into anything I can’t fix. Just a matter of how much money. I bought a classic car awhile back. Didn’t run. I assumed I would be swapping an engine in it and got it for dirt cheap. After about $400 in parts, I got it running. I still own that car 5 years now and it runs great. I could sell that car for 3 times what I have into it.

    I understand your caution if mechanical things are a mystery to you.
  19. Dark horse

    Dark horse Member

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    Very impressive! I wouldn’t consider that canal if I had two engines. It’s settled then. I’ll hire you to take the boat home.