Need Advise on buying a used boat

Yachts

Get yourself another (good) broker.

The normal practice is to go and look at the boat, if you like it, make an offer and yes a 10% deposit is normal down here in Florida to be held in the brokers escrow account.

Then go to survey with an engine surveyor and hull surveyor and any items (yes, any items) that you feel should be fixed can be written into an acceptance of vessel agreement or you can walk away with your deposit returned as long as you sign a rejection of vessel agreement within the dates on your contract.

There are many good brokers who can & often do represent the seller and buyer but it can sometimes lead to conflicts of interests so having a "buyers" broker is a very good idea.

A normal (Florida yacht brokers) purchase agreement should include a date for the seller to accept or reject your offer followed by dates for you to carry out the survey(s) and then an acceptance or rejection date and finally a closing date.

The contract should include "subject to sea trial, survey & finance" or anything else you want to include within reason.

PS. The engines are Cummin's not Cumming's and I am sure there are plenty of brokers on here who will reply with a lot more advise. You may want to let us know which state the boat is in and is it a repo or a normal brokerage deal. Good luck.

Hire a broker that represents *your* interests, as it's clear that the sellers broker does not.
I'll also echo what Pascal and yj said.

You don't need an attorney per say however a broker with a hundred boats under his belt would be more than wise.

Pascal is right on 100%, do not rely on the broker for the surveyor.
A good broker will tell you it may be a conflict for him/her to recommend a broker.
For your Carver, you can use Boat US, they have a surveyor referral service.
Also hire a qualified Cummins engine surveyor/tech. it may cost as much as the hull survey, if not more, but it is well worth it.

I recommend having the engine survey done before the hull survey. That way you will get an idea of what may or may not lie ahead on the sea trial, also if the mains get a "no good" from the engine surveyor you can call off the hull survey and sea trial.

You the buyer, can have a couple thousand dollars wrapped up in engine surveys, hull surveys, short hauls, and sea trials..... all money well spent.
include wording in the contaract that you can back out and get your deposit back if the boat performance or contition is found to be not acceptable or as represenated...

In fact, every boat that i have personally purchased i have had full engine and hull surveys, land surveys, and sea trials......costing a more than a few dollars, but in each instance, i got more than the amount back in allowances for repairs and issues that I did not catch.

Also, the contract should include wording that the deal is subject to acceptable survey and seatrial, depost will be returned in full the survey and seatrial is unacceptable.

Make sure you are using a reputable broker before you write any check weater the broker says he is going to hold it, cash it, or put in some escro account.

Remember you the buyer are in control.....there are lots of boats out there wiith owners that want to sell, take your time, look around, get schooled up on the boat model you have choosen, and dont be afraid to make offers.

Oh yes, final thought, be careful of brokers.....find a good one and stick with him.

I would not be even vaguely worried about the used market and the reason that the buyer wants to sell the boat is ... that he wants to sell the boat.

You can offer any price you like and you can offer any conditions you like.

They can accept that price and those conditions or not.

Having just sold a boat, I can promise you that the seller is negotiable. And if not ... there are lots more boats out there.

And yes, I would get someone representing your interests. I suspect there are lots and lots of things that can be broken without a boat being "un-merchantable". You are buying a second-hand boat, not new and you dont want to forfeit your deposit.

Survey

RT46,

How do you propose doing a full engine survey if you do not sea trial the boat.

Even if you did the engine survey prior to the hull survey how would you know the running gear and the hull are good.

The correct way is to do it the proper way, spend the money, both surveyors to be there on the same morning, let them do their stuff at the dock and then proceed to a haul out facility, let the hull surveyor do his stuff while ashore and then go off on a sea trial.

Money well spent to do it right.

The check, UNCASHED, can be held in escrow. 10% is OK but 5% should be fine too. Both statements are based upon my recent experiences.

A buyers broker can be just as shady as a sellers, so be careful in your selction. How do you know the boat has been well maintained? Before you put any money down, get an experienced friend to go over the boat in detail with you, looking in every nook and cranny, pulling floorboards etc. A few months ago I had no problem getting the seller and broker to fire up all the systems and engines at the dock pruior to the offer. It is your money so be demanding.

YachtJockey,

If the boat is on land, the engine tech should come look at the boat on land and do a Dry Survey before the sea trial.

I did not make it clear in my post that I was recommending having the engine survey done on land and during the sea trial.

During the "Dry" engine survey the engine tech can get a very good idea of the condition and life of the mains without even running the engines. Infact if dealing with Detroits the bore scope will tell alot about the engine.

So what I recommend, is that the engine survey portion be done in 2 stages, a dry survey, and a sea trial.....just like the hull survey is done on land, in water, and sea trial.

The 2 stage-Engine Survey method can, and does save the buyer considerable costs by informing the buyer of the "dry" engine contition and issues before investing more money and time in the sea trial....

Also if conditions are found during the dry survey the buyer can walk away, re-negotiate, or request allowances before the hull and sea trial.

Each time the vessel is examined it gives the buyer more knowledge and power to negotiate.

The last boat i purchased took almost 4 days to do the engine and hull survey. That was money well spent, it saved an awful lot of money.

Also during each stage of the surveys i was back and forth with the broker and re-negotiating and conducting everything in writing.

surveys

RT46, I must be missing something here or you do things completely different up north. Very few of our boats are stored on land down here in SE Florida so your Dry land inspection by an engine surveyor does not apply. Yes I have seen engine surveyors come in and do boro-scope inspections prior to the hull surveyor and sea trial and also for the buyer to walk away however this is now very rare.

The seller and brokers do not want surveys carried out on numerous days and many engine surveyors tell the buyers to do do the cold 'in water" inspection and at that time the air boxes are opened up and the cylinders, pistons, rings and the cross hatching are checked followed by a haul-out to make sure the running gear and bottom are good and then a sea trial. If during the sea trial there are tell tale signs that a boro-scope inspection is required this is done after all of the above including the hull survey.

There should never be a conflict between the hull and engine surveyors regarding access.

As for requesting allowances during the different stages of your proposed method again that does not work down here. That is one simple way to upset a seller by continually going back to ask for this or that off before moving ahead.

I take it that the boat that you bought and it took 4 days to survey must have been above 90 feet LOA, if not you got ripped off.

Also the number of detriot powered boats is now way lower than used to be for sale so many engine guys even rarely do compression or leak down tests and a good few turn up with computer bags and no tools at all.

escrow

can you tell me how you hold an un-cashed check in escrow.

YJ,

Ok you have some good points and it seems as though we might be saying the same things.

But if the seller and selling broker wont allow, or are discouraging the buyer from doing a complete (NON-DESTRUCTIVE) reasonable inspection I say walk away and go look at other boats.

I suppose a 35 Carver could have a survey completed in one business day, but i think 2 days would be the least i would feel comfortable with.

Every hull survey and engine survey that I have paid for has paid me back in allowances and price reductions.

BTW, the real debate is tomorrow....so in the interest of sportsmanship i will agree to a tie....


Regards.

I've been involved with 1,000's of surveys and we do both hull and engine survey's on the same day, and it doesn't get into 2 days unless the vessel is over about 75'. The seller is not going to pay a Captain as well as all the fuel to do several days of seatrials......Every hull surveyor I have dealt with has worked around the engine surveyor and there haven't been any issues.....