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Legal Contract for a New Build?

Discussion in 'General Yachting Discussion' started by kreton, Aug 11, 2008.

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  1. kreton

    kreton New Member

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    Hello Everyone,

    New member here. I am pleased to find this forum, looks quite nice. Hopefully I will be a good member too.

    I'd like to ask for your advice on one issue.

    I am about to order an expensive standard build motoryacht but the contract sent by the dealer is one-sided. The Italian builder is legally quite free yet the buyer has so many responsibilities and obligations. Overall, it is not pleasant.

    The dealer says this famous Italian brand does not negotiate a lot. I trust the dealer whom I know yet do not wish to sign a several million dollar contract which treats the buyer like an idiot.

    After all, I am not expecting a 50-50 totally equal contract with a superyacht manufacturer but, no matter what, I need a contract that protects my basic legal rights.

    This will be my first new boat so I know little about how buyers negotiate a contract with well-known builders. Though I should say that when I got my first boat, I had problems with buying and later with selling brokers so I learned not to trust especially in boating. Give your hand and you may lose your arm...A proper contract and legal support is a must.

    I really wish to go ahead and get this boat but only if they accept some of my conditions. Specifically my q's are :

    - Any prestigious brands that negotiate with clients (for a reasonable, non-idiot contract)
    - This motoryacht is standard production so there is almost no new or custom stuff here. And yet they do not guarantee a) the launch date b) specs such as speed etc. c) they are even asking me to wait until their insurance is settled before I get paid in the event of a total loss before delivery.

    Any input will be greatly appreciated :)

    Many thanks...
  2. OutMyWindow

    OutMyWindow Senior Member

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  3. kreton

    kreton New Member

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    That, I did of course..

    I would not touch a marine contract without an attorney's help let alone sign it...
  4. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    Dito, Dito. That said, those positions don't look out of line although I am NOT an attorney. Often it's in the way things are termed though. Where companies will rarely guarantee a launch date you could offer a bonus for meeting a launch date. Same for speed. Your insurance company takes care of you, their's them. That's all just logic not law. Yachts are complicated in every respect. Let an attorney represent your interests. There are just too many T's and i's.
  5. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    I too agree that most builder's will not guarantee a launch date or speed. I would not rush either of them or the builder might be apt to cut corner's to meet a launch date or build the boat light to make the speed requirement.

    I too would recommend spending the money on a lawyer. It would be well spent in my opinion.....
  6. nilo

    nilo Senior Member

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    Italian law

    I would like to warn you that the builder will be treated under Italian law and hence the contract will be subject to Italian law. Therefore, I suggest you employ a lawyer that is proficient in Italian law for building boats. I've heard some funny stories where buyers had some suprises in such process.
  7. kreton

    kreton New Member

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    hmmm...so why a contract then :)

    Thanks for the comments. I already went through the contract with my attorney. He is saying the builder has to guarantee this and that. I have no problems about legal technicalities.

    I am trying to understand why builders wish to sign a one-sided contract and more importantly how much leeway they have when it comes to showing some flexibility and negotiating on the clauses.

    And you say builders do not guarantee launch dates and boat speed. So why do we need a contract and what exactly do they guarantee ? Is it too much to expect speed guarantee on a non-custom, totally standard motor yacht project ?

    And how will a buyer protect his interest should the builder delays a project because of intentional negligence which can or (more probably) can not be proven ? I would lose a lot if they delivered the boat in fall instead of spring for example.
  8. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    I have not seen a build contract with no agreed delivery date. There is also usually a short grace period after this, before the penalty phase kicks in.

    Performance-It seems strange where the yard are proposing to build you a custom boat which is presumably not the first in the series, if there are previous ones and you know factually the performance not just what the yard tell you should add the hull numbers of these into your contract as a reference.

    Insurance- You or your company will not actually own the vessel till delivery and the final payment. Up to that point the insurance should have nothing to do with your side of the deal and should be covered by the yard. I would advise you get some proof of their insurance cover and or a bank guarantee added into the contract as well.

    Nilo's point about the language of the contract and the language of the law is also very important to deal with properly.

    Attorneys- You wouldn't use a real estate attorney if you were up for murder so make sure the attorney you are using to deal with this contract has verifiable experience in marine matters, and preferably dealings in Italian yards.
  9. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    Both the builder and the buyer have complete leeway in how a contract is writen, and if my lawyer is writing the contract it will be totally one sided for my protection. Why should he try to protect you. That's what your lawyer is for. You on the other hand have the freedom to negotiate or to tell me to jump in a lake. Until the contracts are signed and the builder has your money the deal is your's to make or not. Let your lawyer sweat the details. If you're not comfortable move on to another builder. Remember, without the customer the yard just has a yard. He has to sell boats. You don't have to buy.
  10. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    NYCAP- I think with your opening statement you have just demonstrated your inexperience in these matters.

    The finished contract should be fair to both parties, having it one sided either way only leads to antagonistical builds- believe me I have been involved in a couple.
  11. kreton

    kreton New Member

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    Yes, you are all right. However, as a company gets bigger they may start turning into petty tyrants. Wal-Mart is one good example (on the supply side) from what I heard. Microsoft is another one (on the demand side) that I experienced personally.

    In boat building industry, larger brands unfortunately wish to get a deal that puts all the risk on the client. And as you said, the client has to negotiate with multiple builders to find the right one or the one with more leeway.

    And that's part of what I am doing, including asking you guys...
  12. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    K1W1,
    You said it yourself with your final sentence. Contracts and the law have nothing to do with fairness. It's adversarial. When was the last time you were asked to sign a contract that was written to protect you?
  13. Loren Schweizer

    Loren Schweizer YF Associate Writer

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    Hi kreton:
    Welcome to the un-fun aspect of the boat business. Contracts normally give structure to a deal except when one harbors suspicions regarding clauses a/k/a 'hooks' which obviously give you pause.
    You mentioned dealing with a dealer for the builder. Have you asked for a meeting with the management of the builder? Perhaps this may allay some of the fears you have. More than one constructor, from my personal experience, have put the prospective buyer in touch with a previous client; their confidence in their own fair dealings come out if they allow this...and if they have something in the way of dirty laundry, they will not do so.
    I have no knowledge of Italian law, but good advice has been given by others above in the need for not just legal counsel, but admiralty--as opposed to civil--to protect your interests.
    Over a dozen years ago, I brokered the purchase of a 167-footer lying Norway with a German listing broker under the auspices of what was (still is?) known as The Swedish Contract with embedded London Arbitration clause for a Chilean client.
    At the end of the day, with the added paperwork complexity, all parties merely wished to see the deal come to fruition and not end up as a major hash involving Legalman.

    Good luck.
  14. JMullen

    JMullen New Member

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    Kreton,

    You may want to talk with the boat builder directly, instead of talking with the dealer. A lot of times companies have their lawyers draw up their "form" contracts, with the purpose of protecting the company. The companies then send out their contracts to their dealers, who usually have no negotiating power when it comes to these contracts. This in turn means that you can't change provisions in the contract while talking with the dealer.

    When you pick an attorney, make sure that you have picked someone who knows the substantive law that will govern the contract.

    Also, on a side-note, I am not sure how things work in the marine industry, but you may want to try including a 3rd party satisfaction clause in the contract. This would allow you to hire an independent yacht surveyor who would examine the yacht making sure it is up to standard.