Hydrogen powered Vessels?

Read something about the Fuel Cell as already discussed under

http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1793&highlight=Fuel+cell

Here is again the link:


http://www.hdw.de/hfcs/englisch/press/flyer_1_eng.pdf


This Fuel Cells have been developed by HDW and Siemens for the new German Submarines, but the power is up to now limited by ca. 700KW and the solution is of course very expensive. But the Submarine is running without any pollution and noise.

H cells

YachtWatch,

As you may know from your client, the biggest problem with H2 technology is its safe and efficient storage. Because H2 is not very dense, one must compress the gas to get enough fuel into a specified volume container. However, as you compress H2, a fuel tank the size of your car's fuel tank would wipe out half of Ft. Lauderdale if ignited. Thanks to the emerging nano industry, this problem has very forseeable solutions. I am currently involved with some engineers who have some amazing H2 storage solutions. Let me know if your client would like to discuss...

Is it too much air ?

We are not talking about H2 bomb. With so many H2 vechcles running in Califonia, LA is in danger to be flat by one of those cars.

You can't be serious.

The explosive potential of compressed hydrogen is rather substantial. In some jurisdictions the fine for parking a vehicle powered by compressed propane/LNG in an underground parking lot is in the thousands of dollars. The same volume of hydrogen compressed at the same pressure as LNG has a greater explosive potential.

In simple terms... the H2 molecule has a great deal of "space" between the two H atoms. H------H when you compress the molecule H---H or H-H you are creating a tremendous amount of potential energy and unstable molecule. Imagine a compressed spring.

So to fill a tank with enough Hs, you must put the H--------Hs at least 10,000 psi to get enough "fuel" into the tank to be a viable "fuel Alternative".

....or find a way to remove the bond between the two Hs and thus remove the need to compress the gas!

A logistical problem with Hydrogen fuel would be where to fill up when you go cruising over the world. Not many places as of now have filling stations (I only know of about 5 or 10 in Nor Cal and more in Germany, but only for cars). It's obviously a cleaner source for energy, but it took a lot of energy to compress the Hydrogen. You could argue that solar power was used to compress it, but to fill up a 100,000 gallon tank would take a long time to power by solar engery.

The same applies with nuclear power and enriched uranium. It takes 2 giga watt coal-burning power plant to enrich the Uranium, but is clean when used inside a nuclear-powered aircraft carrier or sub. Just transfers the exhaust to the power plant in Kentucky rather than open ocean.

I've always thought Methanol would be a better alternative fuel to diesel or gasoline. Methanol would require a richer fuel mixture than with gasoline (so more fuel consumption), but more power would be made and it is cleaner. Plus, all you need to make Methanol is water and coal with pressure and heat.

burning water

well,
I would imagine if you desal the water that you are cruising in, and find a way to burn the H2 (without volume/pressure relationship) your exhaust would be fresh clean O2. Happy little tree huggers all over the world! Since this planet is 2/3 water, I think we have a few years of running oceangoing vessels.

Currently the major car manufacturers are using the metal plate and battery approach (previous thread) to utilizing H2. When they realize that there is a better way to use Hydrogen rather than compressing the gas, you will see everything switch over IMMEDIATELY!

Then the OPEC robberbarrons can go back to horse trading!

burn water

...or just buy a sailboat. Another great fuel alternative!

I think that you will be amazed by the technologies that come out in the next few years in regards to alt fuels, Hydrogen, and nanotechs. Most of wich is coming out of Russia. When the US was putting all our hard earned $$ into "worthwile" programs like Social Security, Welfare, and the like, Russia was PUMPING money into technology (trillions at the cost of its countrymen's welfare). Regardless, there is some AMAZING technologies that are currently making their way into the open marketplace. Thanks to the cold war/ space race we will be capitalizing on new technologies.

If you don't believe me, you should look at the technology departments of all out leading Universities in the world.... mostly Russian PHDs.

I am not feeling very positive about hydrogen as a fuel. Besides the actual input costs being very high as Nismo pointed out, there is an entirely new infrastructure required. The security issues are a nightmare. Imagine the volumes required to be in storage in one location just to fuel the Mediterranean fleet that bunkers at Gibraltar. Extrapolate that volume to it's explosive force and the distance from Europe to Africa across the straight could be increased by a substantial amount. Hmmmm, Madrid would be a seaport.

I just took my car out for a drive. It has been running on rapeseed derived methyl-esters for a couple of years. No modifications to any part of the vehicle were required.
The fuel is safer than straight diesel and not even close to being the environmental hazard that diesel is should a spill occur. Zero sulphur dioxide is another plus. I've already contacted a few marine powerplant manufacturers to find out if they have any experience or concerns about using this fuel source as it is my intention to use it with diesel or straight in my vessel should I go ahead with it.

storage

Codger,

True it is scary to think of storing huge volumes of compressed H2 gas, but when you store hydrogen in a stable state --say inside a tank --- HHHHHHHHHHHHH without compressing; simply removing or exchanging the - charged bonds, it becomes a VERY attractive solution. As you start to burn the hydrogen, it would burn like a bunson burner, very controlled. Explosive forces only happen when you compress the gas. There is a way and it is just around the corner.

Any links to information would be appreciated.
I'm quite familiar with some of the work below.
http://www.auto21.ca/powertrains4_e.html
http://ench1.ench.ucalgary.ca/~hydrogen/rmp.htm

In situ hydrogen generation is the only acceptable route to go. Storage of uncompressed hydrogen is not practical from what I can see at this point.
I'd like to be proven wrong. Go for it.

Hi Nano-J, could you explain what you meant when you said that there's a "better way to use Hydrogen rather than compressing the gas"?

I've just found an interesting site about fuel cells. The articles are older (from 2003) but for me some new details. I hope for you too.

http://www.initiative-brennstoffzelle.de/ibz/live/nachrichten/show.php3?id=93&art=e

http://www.initiative-brennstoffzelle.de/ibz/live/nachrichten/show.php3?id=87&nodeid=0&art=e

Hydrogen Packing

Since some of it is still under tight wraps, i can only give you a generalization, But basically the hydrogen storage unit is filled with a very "spongy" material that has some unique properties, one of which is that it "attracts" on the electron level.

This has a strong enough attraction that the H2 will break its bond internally and attach to the material, thus allowing to stack the H side by side without compressing the bond... because there isn't a bond between the H2. This allows you to store more Hs in the same space without pressure. So given a specific volume container packed with H that is not bonded to itself as a H2 molecule, You are able to store a significantly greater amount of H (fuel) without volitility of compressed gas. As I described earlier in one of these threads. Compressing H2 is like this H-----------------------H and when you compress Hydrogen gas it is doing this H----H. The "space" in between the Hs is what is volitile like a coiled spring. When you take the spring from between the two Hs.... it becomes very safe to store like this HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH. To release the H from its container, once an ignition source is applied, the unit releases it as H2 back to its inital state.

I hope that helped you, sorry so vague, but I am sure you understand.

Thanks Nano-J.

This "spongy" material you speak of, is it like metal hydride?

I've read online that this substance soaks up hydrogen.



Unless that is you can't say anymore.

I don't want you to have to kill me.

Sorry Ben, for right now, I can't tell you. But I will tell you that it is about 15 years ahead of what you will find on free information ala WWW.

Ok, thanks nano.

New Catalyst for Hydrogen Generation

Inexpensive metal catalyst for generating hydrogen from water discovered by Berkeley scientists

Hydrogen would command a key role in future renewable energy technologies, experts agree, if a relatively cheap, efficient, and carbon-neutral means of producing it can be developed. An important step towards this elusive goal has been taken by a team of researchers with the U.S. Department of Energy’s (DOE) Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory (Berkeley Lab) and the University of California, Berkeley. The team has discovered an inexpensive metal catalyst that can effectively generate hydrogen gas from water.

“Our new proton reduction catalyst is based on a molybdenum-oxo metal complex that is about 70 times cheaper than platinum, today’s most widely used metal catalyst for splitting the water molecule,” said Hemamala Karunadasa, one of the co-discoverers of this complex. “In addition, our catalyst does not require organic additives, and can operate in neutral water, even if it is dirty, and can operate in sea water, the most abundant source of hydrogen on earth and a natural electrolyte. These qualities make our catalyst ideal for renewable energy and sustainable chemistry.”

Karunadasa holds joint appointments with Berkeley Lab’s Chemical Sciences Division and UC Berkeley’s Chemistry Department. She is the lead author of a paper describing this work that appears in the April 29, 2010 issue of the journal "Nature," titled “A molecular molybdenum-oxo catalyst for generating hydrogen from water.” Co-authors of this paper were Christopher Chang and Jeffrey Long, who also hold joint appointments with Berkeley Lab and UC Berkeley. Chang, in addition, is also an investigator with the Howard Hughes Medical Institute (HHMI).

...more here:
http://www.designfax.net/enews/20100525/feature-3.asp#

There is no such thing as hydrogen that is cheaper than the source of energy used to produce it.

And as long as it takes more energy to produce hydrogen than it can return to the system, simply obtaining it will remain a very big problem. Storing and distributing it the least of the problems.