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How do I best use this resource?

Discussion in 'General Yachting Discussion' started by SFS, Oct 4, 2013.

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  1. SFS

    SFS Senior Member

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    Hello all. First time poster, but I've been reading a lot of material on the site over the past week or so, and will continue to do so, using the search feature extensively.

    My wife and I are nibbling at the edges of purchasing a boat to live on, and to do some cruising with, and possibly retire onto. I've read the hints about chartering first, doing research, obtaining training, the repercussions of bigger boats (insurance issues; need for competent helpers, however named; insurance coverage vs. my experience, etc.) and other myriad topics. I am just getting started, and am in no hurry to buy, as I have a lot of (dated) experience in boats up to about 22'. Something big enough to live on will be a large step, and we will not take it lightly.

    So here is my question: I am in Tampa, and the Ft. Lauderdale boat show is coming up the end of this month. We plan to attend, on Saturday and Sunday. How can I make best use of the show to gather applicable information we can use to move forward in this process?

    I don't really want to wander around blindly, trying to see every boat bigger than 36 feet (our likely minimum), as that will be a lot of boats. I see value in looking at as many interior layouts and "body styles" as possible, to try to discern our preferences, but beyond that, I have no clue as to how to our spend time most wisely. Any thoughts the community has would be appreciated.

    The following info may also be helpful in guiding us. When we do buy, it will probably be something at least 10 years old, for affordability sake. Based on my limited research so far, I'm leaning towards a trawler configuration, for fuel economy and range. I've been unable to determine if there is a "trawlerfest" type subsection of the show, but if there is, I will be spending time there. I also plan to spend time in "cruiserport" area.
  2. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    That will serve as a good prelude and then you can follow up on the Trawlerfest in January. How long in the future are you planning on buying?

    I recently have been through a similar situation. For us, the first things we did really were figuring out a lot of what we didn't want or like. It sounds like you're already centered in on how you intend to use it but even more work there helps. If you have a size range in mind that helps. Certainly that allows you to focus on builders who manufacture those sizes. If you're looking ten years old, then focus more on builders who have been manufacturing boats similar to those you want for at least that period of time.

    You've said greater than 36', so I'd emphasize 36-60' probably. One reason I might go a bit higher than I want is that some manufacturers tend to emphasize their larger boats in the show. One thing I'd think of at each boat would be, how do I think I would be on extended time aboard and/or living on it. You can get good ideas on what you like in galley arrangement and even staterooms. Think about flybridge versus none. I would look through the companies and boats on display (they are sorted by brand) and thinking about the time I have allotted, set a priority of those you want to absolutely be sure to see. To me that's a key is having a Must See list so you don't get home and find you missed the brand you like most.

    Over time you'll develop a list of other factors. For instance, do you have any bridges that are issues where you're going? The most common consideration for boaters in this range who decide they want to loop is Chicago, but then the Erie Canal is beautiful and has limitations. Even in Fort Lauderdale if you live north versus south you encounter the need for openings or if you dock deep in the New River.

    It's all about exposure there, here, and elsewhere. Then you can ask more specific questions. Once you've narrowed things a bit and realized those things that are must have vs. those that you absolutely dislike, narrowing further becomes easier. I would assume you're also looking at a lot of used boat sites or certainly the larger ones, just as part of your learning exercise.

    I would try to leave some time just for enjoying the show, even admiring those boats that are beyond your reach.

    The biggest problem we had at our first show of this type was politely saying we were just looking and very early in our process, not ready to really talk yet. Some insist on trying to see you, when you're nowhere close to being ready for that. If you let them detain you too long you'll never see what you want to. We only encountered one who would not take no for an answer. He was a broker. You are in a somewhat different situation from us, in that you are looking potentially for used. Still, you're not ready to be sold on a specific one yet. You might however actually run across someone you want to be sure to talk to later.
  3. SFS

    SFS Senior Member

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    We could buy as early as the next 6 months, but again, we are in no hurry.

    Bridges are not a huge factor here. The boat would be slipped somewhere with direct gulf access in the short term, and I have no desire to do the loop. Bahamas, FL Keys and Caribbean would be our areas of interest.

    I have spent a lot of time on various for sale sites, and will continue to do so. Initially, it was hard not to get excited about a lot of what I was seeing - clearly the market is well off its highs. But many of what appear to me to be good buys are older wooden boats, and wood is not a direction I really want to go. I've also looked online at a lot of boats between 50 and 60 feet, but am now concerned that there might be insurance issues for a relative newbie jumping into a 50+.

    Therefore, the concept of narrowing our options is one I will keep in mind. I'm still sorting the vocabulary of flybridge, aft cabin, sedan, trunk, convertible, etc. in terms of style, and the show (along with more research) will help with that.

    As soon as I posted the thread, I found an older thread for the January 2013 TrawlerFest, so I will make a note as to the 2014 iteration. There was also one in the past two weeks up in Maryland I think, but I likely would not have made that one. There is also the St. Petersberg show coming up in December, and that's just a 15 minute drive.

    Thank you for taking the time to reply. I would love to hear more, from anyone that cares to comment.
  4. AlfredZ

    AlfredZ Senior Member

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    Hi there and welcome aboard,

    I would look at the threads of older boat shows like you are doing now, then I would go to the website of the show, check the listed brokers and boats on show, set your viewing targets, then see what other boats you might be interested in that are listed by participating brokers and are not on show (officially) during the boat show. While a broker might be displaying a boat or two at the show, they would have other boats handy and close by. The show is big, so make your own list and viewing schedule (It is important to arrange with brokers for your visit to make sure you will get the best of your time on the boat and the most attention of the broker, it will also show that you are really serious and require priority over others that might mostly be observers, enthusiasts or so on) before you go so you make the best of your visit to the show.

    Before all that, set groups of boat types you are interested in in terms of size, the list what you want and don't want in your next dream boat. Even if you have concerns about boats over 50', list those and inquire about them, I really do think that you will find many of those concerns aren't as big as you thought they are, so instead of buying a boat smaller than you really want and then saying I wish I have gone bigger, let it become a reality of either "I couldn't go bigger even if I want to" or "I'm glad I handled overcome my fears and concerns the right way". Personally, and since you say you are in the market on short term bases, I would have a buyer's broker at this point. Check for someone that has extensive experience in the type of boat (and boating if possible) you are after, someone with a good reputation and history, and if this broker is part of the boat show, then let it be someone that has more than one person in their firm so you get your fair share of their time. You mentioned the boat type as "Trawler" while your boating style as it strikes me is more "Fast Trawler Motor Yacht" (Fast and Trawler in one sentence always puzzles me but hey... it is used often a lot!), a good broker with knowledge in these types of boats (Like YF member JWY) will have the mind set and list of questions and answers to you that will draw a very short list of boats that fits you and you will like in 5 minutes! at the same time, they can help guide you to other boat types like cruisers or sportfish if they, by experience, see that what you think you want is not your cup'a'joe, and they will give you indicative facts to that.

    Sorry if I made this long a bit. Enjoy your stay around Yachtforums and keep us up on your quest. you might even help in live (semi-live) coverage of the show and even be lucky to meet other members that might be visiting the show.

    Cheers!
  5. weto

    weto Senior Member

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  6. SFS

    SFS Senior Member

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    Thank you both. I'll be sending a PM to Judy. I've read some of her posts, and I know she is a trawler fan.

    What's the best way to find a qualified reputable broker? If anyone has any suggestions as to brokers in the Tampa (or Florida) area, please PM me. We do have the FYBA here, but I doubt they make specific recommendations - they would likely just provide a list.

    Interesting take on boats larger than 50'. I can certainly see the value in not buying too small in the beginning, only to have to start the process all over again. And in a liveaboard situation, small would tend to get smalller, I should think. My wife has suggested that, when our current lease ends, we downsize significantly and try something in the neighorhood of 600 sq ft. to get a feel for living in a smaller space than we are used to.

    I've also ordered a copy of Seven Miles an Hour (which I heard about here). I know one book won't tell me everything I need to know, but I suspect that every additional perspective will have some value.
  7. Fishtigua

    Fishtigua Senior Member

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  8. SFS

    SFS Senior Member

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    Thanks Fish. I'll pick up a copy, but it will be 2nd on the schedule behind Chapman's, which I've been reading bits and pieces of for 40+ years. Time for a cover-to-cover.
  9. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    SFS. Found your thinking of 600 sq ft apartment trial interesting. I don't know if you've ever watched a tv show called House Hunters or House Hunters International, but this made me think of that. You see a couple relocating often to their dream location. It might be from US to a city in Italy and they give a list of requirements. Now of course in their budget the requirements can't be met. Not their ideal. Then they figure out as they're shown around what is really important. Often they find then the sacrifices are nothing compared to the incredible new area they're living and it's pluses. But they also find in the course of the trips those things they just can't compromise on, the deal breakers. My wife and I had one huge one looking at larger yachts and that was we did not want the galley down. For us it's live up, sleep down. For others that isn't an issue and some prefer it down.

    I just was looking at a 47 Grand Banks as an example. You talk 600 sq ft apartment. Well, it's got about 450 sq ft indoor space. But it has a wrap around patio and a rooftop deck and an endless view. So the outdoor living obviously much improved. As to indoors, it's got 2 BR and 2 BA and your apartment probably only has 1. I'm sure the baths are much smaller, living room smaller and kitchen much smaller. Now it becomes which of those aspects would bother you the most? I don't know for instance how much you cook, but that could be an area your wife says I just couldn't live with that galley. I need a bit more. Then you look at the 54 and see there is so much more galley space and a dining area. I'm 6-4 so head clearance and bed size become major considerations. The point is that to get the location you want, on the water, you will sacrifice some, but you figure out which sacrifices you can deal with. In many ways, you're doing too separate searches and looking for one answer. First is boat, second is apartment. So you want a good boat with an apartment you find livable.

    There's the old saying to get the most boat you can afford the first time. One problem with that is you may underestimate the costs of maintaining it or problems that might come up. So probably need some room between. Living no doubt would be better on more boat. Riding probably better. But then every cost factor worse. Again on house hunter it's often you live outside where you want to for the price you want but the locaion you want will cost more. Now as to the cost differences in owning two different boats you can figure those out.

    Engine maintenance may be slightly more but a rebuild or replacement much more. Docking while at your home dock, you can check. Docking while away you can estimate because it's a direct cost per foot. Will you anchor mostly? That brings into an advantage on the larger of it's dinghy capabilities. By anchoring and using the dinghy it's cheaper than docking. Fuel more but at displacement speeds might not be as much as you'd think. It's at more throttle where it really increases. Again those numbers are readily available. Haulouts are generally by the foot. But you can calculate the difference in cost for the size versus the added space and cruising ability.

    From operating size only becomes an issue at some point. If it becomes too tall for the bridges you encounter or the draft is too much for the waters you frequent. Also, it's when it becomes too much for two of you to comfortably handle. If you're locking much, can you handle it in locks. Will you be on it much alone and when is it too much to handle alone. Recognize the pros can handle more than you easily. Also some of that is design. If my access from the helm to the decks is easy, my ability to get to the bow, my line of vision good then i can handle more than if not. Does it have a boythruster? Joystick? (I know many have negative thoughts toward that word but nice for novices).

    Then there is the totally subjected aesthetic appeal. This is inside and out. Is it appealing to me? Do I find the stateroom comfortable and like the built ins? If there is a second stateroom as there generally will be, can I get good use out of it? Can I use the closet space in it to make up for the shortage in mine? How many guests will I have? Can I actually have guests now that I couldn't in my one bedroom?
  10. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    I just searched Amazon for kindle and found 20 liveaboard books. Two were especially interesting, "The Essentials of Living Aboard a Boat" and "The Art of Living Aboard a Boat". Also, "How to Buy and Live on a Boat" Actually one can pick up hints from all the books, even the sailing ones. In fact in some ways I've picked up more little cruising tips from sailors as their space is more limited, they are more exposed to bad weather, and they have more duties.
  11. weto

    weto Senior Member

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    P.S. JWY (judy) is also a broker.
  12. SFS

    SFS Senior Member

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    That is most excellent news. I have PM'd her.