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Furling vs. non-furling headsails...

Discussion in 'General Sailing Discussion' started by Omar Khayyam, Feb 21, 2008.

  1. Omar Khayyam

    Omar Khayyam New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2008
    Messages:
    2
    Location:
    Honolulu/Kailua
    I like to sail as fast as I can. Not wallowing my way across an ocean. Owned a 43' Hans Christian Ketch, and may own a new Hans 48' cutter. Both really moderate displacement boats, with rather powerful rigs, i.e. lots of sail area. Furling is great, but I like a clean boat to windward, and I'm not convinced that you don't give up a 1/2 knot or so upwind for a little convenience. I now see lots of boats with furling rigs. Which is best?
    Any sail makers out there?
  2. vivariva

    vivariva Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2007
    Messages:
    187
    Location:
    Istanbul, Turkey
    Roller-furler

    Dear Omar,

    Furling headsails are chosen for their ease of use. 90% of cruising sailboats have them. It demands less people to operate them and eliminates the need to carry at least 3 different headsails on the sailboat.

    The sail itself is usually a Dacron Genoa with UV protection. In light air, as the sail is fully unfurled the upwind performance is quite satisfactory. However as you know, the wind is rarely consistent and the boat becomes rapidly overpowered with a full genoa and mainsail. You will have to ease the mainsail as bearing off continues to heel the yacht in a close reach. This might be a hindrance for you.

    You usually use the headsail unfurled around 60%, as a jib Code 2 or 3. With this configuration, you can attain good velocity against the wind with a good mainsail. If the main is also a roller-furler, the lower aspect ratio compared to a full mainsail hurts your upwind speed. Combined with the extra weight of a cruiser, you might not like the performance.

    A furling genoa will always provide less performance in any case, but the mainsail will provide enough drive to attain a satisfactory VMG. The headsail always has the undisturbed air advantage but in a ketch the center of effort is more aft so you will have to adjust the main and the mizzen as well.

    On a cutter, furling headsails will save you a lot of time too, and you can use either in a close-reach or in a wider angle. Reaching in a cutter will be quite satisfying, I can assure you. (Assuming you have both of them unfurled)

    If you are sailing upwind, the ketch's performance will be less than you like regardless of its headsail type. You can surely experiment with different sail configuration but the rig will always favor downwind sailing.

    Secondly, you should have a storm jib as a backup in any case. To summarize my point of view;

    1. The ketch's sail configuration needs more manpower than a sloop. A non-furling headsail will bring more crew work as you will have to change the sails during passage.

    2. The best types of sail are Kevlar/Mylar sandwich with the use of Spectra material. 3DL sails use these components in the America's Cup boats. You cannot furl these sails for a long-term as they are too precious to do so if you ask me. The differences between a Dacron furler and a non-furler are in the fractions of a knot since in your rig the percentage of the headsail's sail area to the total sail area is much less than a sloop. The performance impact will be less as a consequence.
  3. sailandfish

    sailandfish Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2005
    Messages:
    43
    Location:
    new orleans/ cape coral florida
    Dont really know why you think you would lose speed due to the fact that the sail is roller furling. The sailmaker can make a nearly identical sail furling or hank on. All race boats today use a headstay luff, which is pretty much the same thing as a roller furling luff. If performance is such a concern you could get a low profile harken racing roller furling luff, basically thinner and lighter than a profurl unit or similar, but this would be silly on a heavy boat such as yours. Im positive that if you lose speed it isnt because the sail is on a roller furler.

    Things that do hurt performance on a roller furling sail are sewn on sun shade covers. This is the canvas lip around the foot and leech that when rolled up takes the place of a sail cover. They detract from the sails shape and add considerable weight to the sail. Good news is you can have your sail made without them and just have a separate sail cover. Many older cruising boats have ragged blown out roller furling sails, mabey these sails have caused your opinion. A new sail will nearly do miracles for your performance.
  4. Omar Khayyam

    Omar Khayyam New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2008
    Messages:
    2
    Location:
    Honolulu/Kailua
    Re roller furling

    I've sailed quite a few years, and have always liked the roller furling idea, but always hanked on my headsails. Vivariva and sailandfish both have given me a couple of ideas. BTW, I sold my ketch many years ago. I like the cutter rig with less windage, weather helm hassels etc. The Harken racing roller furling luff might be the way to go. I have raced cats for many years, and even the fastest monohull is slow to me. For cruising, however, the cutter is my choice. I only want to keep the boat moving along with some convenience.

    So, what I'm hearing is use a 130 to 150 genoa, with the staysail furled, and as the breeze strengthens, roll the genny up, and unroll the staysail. Next, a reef in the main, then two, with a third reef, and storm staysail, and then storm trysail...For a 48' boat displacing 44,000 lbs, and carrying 1400 sq ft. of sail, I wonder what cloth weight might be best? 9 oz main and staysail, and 5 oz genny?
  5. brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2004
    Messages:
    2,981
    Location:
    St Augustine, Fl and Thailand
    Single-masted ketch/cutter

    Welcome to the forums Omar

    I think you got your sail cloth weights about right for a relatively heavy displacement boat. But then each sailmaker will have their own suggestions, particularly considering todays exotic choices in materials.

    Interesting you comments on ketches verses cutters, and your experiences with cats. You might find my concepts of crossing a cutter with a ketch, but in a single-masted version, of interest.
    http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/general-sailing-discussion/1548-gamefishing-sail-under-sail-power.html

    http://www.runningtideyachts.com/sail/

    I can lead you to a lot more discussions of the aerodynamics of the situation if you care to read it??...particularly as related to the 'slot effect' between headsails and mains.
  6. sailandfish

    sailandfish Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2005
    Messages:
    43
    Location:
    new orleans/ cape coral florida
    You would likely want to carry a 150 genny of a lighter cloth, and a 120 of heavier material. For light air times you would put the big genny on, but that sail could only be reefed so much before over stressing it in windy conditions, such a sail would be uselfull in wind less than 17kn on the nose, in higher winds you would want to have the 120 up. So say you are cruising the southern us coast or bahamas for example you would use the 150 because lighter winds usually prevail over heavier. For sailing in the north sea you would want the 120 because heavy winds prevail. The nice thing is you would only need 2 headsails and a staysail, whereas with a hank on jib you would probably carry 3 or more head sails and a staysail. With roller furling everything is controlled from the cocpit which is safer and much easier. I suggested the harken racing gear, but I dont think it is intended for use on such heavy boats like your talking about, its more suited towards light planing race boats, but ask the manufacturer and thell tell you what is best for your vessel.