Ethanol gas at the marina

Here's a link that touches on the subject...

http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/chris-craft-roamer-discussion/3640-ethenol-killing-fuel-tanks.html

I,m Located On Long Island Where We Have Been Changing Out The Fiberglass Tanks To Aluminum Because The Ethenol Has Been Eating The Gel Coat From The Inside Of The Tanks

Interesting subject. I was asked not to long ago what I thought about filling our fuel tanks (18000 gallon worth of tanks) with that bio fuel or what ever. I really didn't like the idea simply becuase I am ignorant of what that stuff is about and what could happen if you all of a sudden decide to run that stuff through a set of CAT's that has always been use to regular desiel. Plus I thought about how the Racors and secondaries would take to it. Plus I already have algea in the tanks and what would that forieghn stuff do. I could go on and on with the pluses. I welcome any coments from those who know more.

C4ENG
Wading through the fog is pretty tough. I've already gone through it so here's an overview. This relates to the use of alternatives in land based heavy construction/earth-moving vehicles powered by Diesels. Also some gensets. Forget anything that you hear about Methanol or ethanol since that goes in to the gasoline-fueled side of this situation. Methyl esters which are processed oil seeds can work like a charm in diesels. Sometimes these are called "Bio-Diesel". Seems to be a catch all term, which just confuses the whole deal from my perspective. To add to the confusion there are some that refer to straight vegetable oils as bio-diesel as well. Yes, some diesels can actually be run on vegetable oils but there are pre-heating requirements and frankly I'm not going to authorise someone dumping a jug of corn oil or whatever in to the tank of an engine that costs upwards of 80k just for a minor re-build, let alone the downtime that can be costed out in the thousands of dollars per hour.
Now, all that being said. If you check with the engine manufacturer and ask specifically about the use of ASTM spec methyl-esters you'll get a range of responses from, absolutely not to ok in mixes below 10 to 1. 10 parts diesel, 1 part methyl esters.
There is another part to all this. The vehicle itself and it's fuel systems. Methyl esters act as solvents and any accumulated sludge in the fuel tanks will get loose and plug up the filters. Also some flexible parts that are referred to loosely as "rubber" also don't like methyl esters and will crack or just plain leak.
If you check out all of the above and find that the systems and the engine are safe and capable of using the methyl esters then there are a few other caveats. The one that probably wouldn't affect you is the gel point being raised. Some places where we work the ambient temperatures can be well below freezing and the methyl esters turn in to a paste that no fuel pump that I've ever heard of can haul through any fuel line. If somehow that paste gets to the injection pump you can kiss that off as well.
If you can get your head around all of this and find a reliable source of properly cleaned methyl esters there is an upside to the use of the fuel.
It has zero sulphur so there is a potential increase in the longevity of the engine. There is an increase in the lubricity of the mixed fuel, which can also add to the life of the pumps etc. In my situation the engine clatter is reduced somewhat and the operators like it. The smoke is reduced and the smell of sulphur is down disproportionately to the volumes of the mix.
We have run as high as 50% on a couple of old Cat631 scrapers and D8H push cats that should have been about ready for scrap so we really didn't care if they fragged themselves. They're still running.
Fuel source is as important when looking at this subject as anything else. The stuff that passes for diesel in some places wouldn't pass testing by anyone other than a lab rat doing his best impression of a crack monkey. The same holds true for methyl esters.
How fine a filter are you using now?

That was a facinating bit of information there. I believe I will cut and past that little bit up there and print it out for my notes. And then for the next time some one ask me if I am interested in taking on the responsibility to be like the first mega-yacht engineer to take on that so called "Bio-desiel". Already my gut instinct had told me it would not be a good idea for an 8 year old vessel to take on something that the vessel was not normaly built for. It was great to learn of some of the reasons as to why which I did not know. As far as the filters, the racors are 20 microns and I believe the CAT secondaries are 5 (for the 3512's). When you started talking about the rubber hoses and things, I started thinking about all the rubber in those filters that hold together the paper elements. I would welcome what you might know about how that fuel would work with those filters.

Codger, an excellent post!

What can you tell us about how well methyl esters and water get along, i.e., more hydroscopic (wants to take water into solution) than the stuff made from dinosaur poop?

Does the biodiesel cetane rating differ much from what Ma Nature offers? In other words, less/more fuel efficiency?

Last, I've heard MEs also refered to as 'fatty acid methyl esters'. Does this mean we are simply exchanging sulphur-inducing acids in the crankcase oil due to the combution process (of high-sulphur diesel) for a fuel that already has the wrong pH?

GO TO http://www.boatus.com/seaworthy/fueltest.asp AND CHECK THE ARTICLE

Isn't this getting interesting! Phillrajotte's post & link picked on Bertram's fuel tanks...seems not to be osmotic blistering (my first thought) but problems due to ethanol.

This is not gonna be cheap for a whole lot of boat owners with 'glas tanks.

The d@mning part of all this is that methanol comes from corn that is grown with petrochemical-based fertilizers and is then distilled in coal-fired distillation plants.

We are "saving" oil to produce a fuel that takes more energy to make than it gives back, essentially.

The three Laws of Thermodynamics, in plain English, state:

1) You can't get something from nothing
2) You can't even break even
3) You gotta play the game

This may yet be one helluva game. Enjoy that corn on the cob this July 4th BBQ.
You might be regaling your grandkids with such madcap tales.

C4ENG
Apologies for the tardy reply, been away and offline.
I'm by no means trying to talk you out of using this fuel in case I'm coming across sounding negative.
Rudolph's Diesels were originally run on Peanut oil and due to supply issues in various parts of the world it would be fair to say that we've run diesels on mixes of just about anything that pours including palm oil mixed with JetB. Painting the fuel tanks black was mandatory The critical issue is always the viscosity of the mix and it's lubricity. You can run a diesel on straight kerosene but the fuel pump will get trashed and the injection pump will seize due to the lack of lubricity.
If you ever come across some "expert" that tells you to just add gasoline to thin it out, do the world a favour and turn him in to fish bait before he tells that to some poor sot who believes him and acts on that advice.
Would I try any of these mixes in a highly refined higher revving, high injection pump pressure modern diesel in a yacht? My answer before coming aboard would be a question: Do you have a large crew and long oars? If you however told me that you were running 50% methyl esters and had done your homework on any fuel system changes I'd ask where the steward with my glass of scotch was hiding and directions to a nice sunny place on deck.
Couple of other things to add to your checklist of things to look out for.
Methyl Esters don't like copper for some reason. So even if there is a 2 inch long copper nipple being used to connect a couple of pieces of flexible fuel line, replace the copper with steel or polyethylene.
Injector washers are occasionally made out of copper.
Check the engine oil filters more often than normal. If there are injector issues and coking then it'll show up quickly in the engine oil.
Methyl esters don't kill off the bugs living in the water in the bottom of your fuel tank so you'll still need to deal with that issue.

No problem with the Racors. We go 30 to 10 to 2 micron racked outboard regardless of what the engine manufacturer specs. Long ago learned that the cost of a couple of extra filters was cheaper than an injection pump or the downtime on a clogged injector in our applications. Besides there is this provision in the warranty papers about "normal wear'....

After all that and with ULSD on it's way to being the norm, a 5% methyl ester hit will bring the cetane levels up to or over what you were getting out of good old D2.

I don't know where all you cruise or how long you want to keep that powerplant running but my 2 cents is that anytime that you change anything in the system make sure that it will handle methyl esters. Wouldn't surprise me one bit if a government here and there mandated a mix of methyl esters in Diesel just like they've done with Ethanol in Gasoline.

Hi Loren
Water has been no more of a problem using the ME/D2 mix than it was running straight D2.

Cetane ratings vary depending upon the feedstock. Rapeseed/Canola, the most common feedstock for us is slightly higher than D2. I don't think that Cetane rating and energy output are the same thing. We get the same number of running hours out of a tank of 10-20% mix as we do out of straight D2. At a 50% mix we're down about 10% run time but the differences in operating conditions and loads could account for that. No information that I'd lay any wagers on. Just a general observation.

Oil seeds are referred to as Fatty Acids. I don't have any information on the ph of the ME.

My take on the sulphur part of this is that anything that we can do to reduce the sulphur dioxide output ourselves is a step in the right direction. I'd rather be ahead of the curve and make sure that we have a viable way to fuel up than all of a sudden get told that we've got x amount of time to get used to ULSD and be sweating bullets because we didn't prepare. We also externally filter the bottom end oil anyway and so far we're projecting increased life rather than a decrease.

If I sound like a bit of a madman when it comes to the topic of filtering fluids it is due to lessons learned in one particular place that we operate. Some of those famous oil sands in Alberta are extremely fine silica. It's just a nice way of saying that I'm running machines in an environment composed of a substance that most people would define as a grinding compound. Ambient temperatures run from -45C to plus 40C.

What Is E-10 Gasoline, And What Are The Issues

E10, Is a gasoline blended with up to 10 % ethanol alcohol and is now in widespread use in the U.S. Ethanol, ethyl alcohol, is made from corn, sugar and other grains. E-10's use in boats is State dependant. On the East Coast, MD and VA and points north use E-10 while NC uses pure gasoline. On the West Coast, Hawaii uses E-10 while the Midwest has been using E-10 for over a decade. The main issues with E-10 are:

1. The biggest concern is the level of Ethanol in your gas. Outboard motors and gas engines are now warranted by the engine manufacturers to use E-10. However, more than 10% can be dangerous to your engine. When you fill up ask what you are getting.

2. Ethanol attracts water. The water will drop out of the Fuel and settle at the bottom of the tank, taking the ethanol with it. If the water does not get to the height of the pickup you may not have problems. However when it gets rough, the water gets bounced around and gets sucked up into the engine, now you have a problem.

3. Ethanol is a excellent solvent, which means it will dissolve many particles and contaminants in your tank and even the tank itself if its fiberglass. These dissolved particles can find their way to your engine. The answer here is to use a 10 micron fuel filter and check with your engine manufacturer for recommendations. Older Fiberglass tanks can be a problem. If you suspect your old tanks you may be better off replacing them.

4, Due to its solvent nature Ethanol can eat away fuel system parts. However since the introduction of E-10, motor manufacturers have come to address these issues. The solvent issues have been addressed by making the fuel system alcohol proof. New engines are now E-10 ready.

5. In most states (not all) it's required by law that pumps pumping E-10 must be labeled.

Additional information on the subject can be found here:
http://myboatsgear.com/newsletter/2007620.asp

E-15 Gasoline for All

The ethanol boxing match continues play on the world's centre stage as various lobby groups get into the ring. Now the influential Boat Owners' Association of the United States is putting on its gloves by urging individuals to get involved.

BoatUS is the USA's largest recreational boat owners group, and they are joining boat, car and engine manufacturers including the National Marine Manufacturers Association (NMMA) and environmental groups such as the Sierra Club in saying 'Not so fast' to a petition brought by the ethanol lobby to the EPA that would allow the amount of ethanol permitted in gasoline to be increased from 10% to 15%.

The trade group Growth Energy, which represents the ethanol producers, investors, and corn growers, wants to increase the use of ethanol in the nation's fuels. If successful, the petition would grant the ethanol industry a waiver to allow a 15% ethanol concentration in gasoline.

However, BoatUS is concerned because boat engines were not designed for use with gasoline containing more than 10% ethanol, and using any greater concentration above that level may void engine warranties, damage motors and fuel systems and potentially lead to significant safety issues.

'We support renewable energy,' said BoatUS Vice President of Government Affairs Margaret Podlich. 'However, our recent experience with a nationwide roll-out of E10, or a 10% ethanol concentration, leads us to believe there has to be a lot more science and unbiased testing before we can universally accept E15.'

Podlich is referring to the widely known problems with ethanol's ability to attract water into gasoline, degrade fiberglass gas tank walls to the point of failure, and its solvent-like quality which has led to catastrophic boat engine failures and major repair or replacement costs.

'A few years ago, no one thought there would be any problems with E10, and there were. Boaters got stuck with the tab for repairs. Independent authorities have not tested higher levels of ethanol in marine engine systems, and its use may void a warranty.

If this petition for a waiver is approved for E15 now - without testing it first for use with marine engines - boaters might be on the hook for these repair costs. All we are saying is let's first take a look at all the facts before we increase the use of ethanol by 50%,' she added.

BoatUS is urging their members to go to their website www.BoatUS.com/gov before the US's federally-mandated comment period ends on May 21 to send the EPA an email asking them to deny the waiver for E15 fuel until more testing is done.

BoatUS is part of a broad coalition of over 50 consumer, industry and environmental organizations working to ensure science is part of the federal decision.