Click for Westport Click for JetForums Click for Delta Click for Cross Click for Abeking

Dinghy attachment to boat deck

Discussion in 'Technical Discussion' started by dan1000, Nov 1, 2010.

You need to be registered and signed in to view this content.
  1. dan1000

    dan1000 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2006
    Messages:
    58
    Location:
    Newport Beach
    Having purchased a 14' dinghy at FLIBS, I met today with an installer who seemed very knowledgeable and had clearly installed many many dinghies.

    But he said one thing that surprised me. He proposed that he would attach the removable dinghy chocks to my nidacored boat deck using screws that went all the way through both pieces of fiberglass (and of course the core between them). The screws were to be bedded into 5200. I'm worried about long term water intrusion because I'm not sure the nidacored deck provides a "hard" enough set of attachment points for an 800 lb dinghy.

    My concern is that the dinghy will, in a rough sea, impart a substantial amount of stress that may lead to water intrusion into the core (clearly a bad thing) via the attachment points. Although they will be waterproof on day 1, will all that stress leave them waterproof a few years later.

    I'm not too worried about crushing the core, since the screw will be embedded through both sides of it, so the problem is different than that of a thru-bolted plate imparting compression pressure to the core. Still, I'm worried that the fiberglass on either side of the core might flex a lot more than it would with a solid resin hardpoint.

    My question to the group: Should I be satisfied with this approach, or should I insist on cutting a much larger hole for each screw (say 2" - 3"), scraping out the core, and creating a "hard point" using resin, before screwing into the deck?

    I understand that doing this, but using thru-bolting, would be even more secure. But note that I'm not really worried about the dinghy coming off. More worried about long term water intrusion, rot, and so on.

    Many thanks

    Dan Freedman
  2. AMG

    AMG YF Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2004
    Messages:
    5,380
    Location:
    Sweden
    You are right, get another installer.
  3. tirekicker11

    tirekicker11 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2010
    Messages:
    322
    Location:
    SE Asia
    What are your dinghy chocks made of?
    Could you glass/epoxy them to the deck?
  4. dan1000

    dan1000 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2006
    Messages:
    58
    Location:
    Newport Beach
    While I could glass them in, I'm trying for removable chocks. I'd like to avoid creating trip-over points because the boat deck is a really useable area for lounging once the dinghy is launched (see Judy Waldman's YachtForums review for pics of the boat deck).

    Dan
  5. Bill106

    Bill106 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2010
    Messages:
    390
    Location:
    Beaufort NC
    While it is never a good idea to allow, water intrusion into that core will not be an issue as it would only penetrate disturbed cells where the holes are and not spread further. If it were ever to freeze and expand it could cause delamination but your location makes that hopefully unlikely:)

    Through bolting does tie both skins together and provide better holding strength but there still is an issue of point loading which should be addressed. The simplest way is a sleeve of aluminum or delrin that the bolt passes through to avoid crushing the core.

    If you are trying for the "clean" look you could bury a plate of material inside the core that can be drilled and tapped. This will require some glasswork and fairing and also re-glassing over and beyond the insert to spread the load properly. It is more costly but by far the best way to fasten heavy loads into a core. I use that particluar brand of core material (and others) quite frequently so feel free to PM me and I would be happy to share more details.
  6. Loren Schweizer

    Loren Schweizer YF Associate Writer

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2004
    Messages:
    1,352
    Location:
    Coral Gables/Ft. Laud., FL
    I agree. Dig out a volume of FRP, add a thick piece of aluminum to be drilled & tapped at each attachment point, and cosmetically finish.
  7. FullaFlava

    FullaFlava New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2009
    Messages:
    50
    Location:
    Fort Lauderdale
    If you do follow the route of inserting a block or plate of metal to be tapped, I'd suggest stainless rather than aluminium. The chances are that the chocks would be attached with stainless bolts and the aluminium would rot really quickly in the presence of seawater.
  8. Bill106

    Bill106 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2010
    Messages:
    390
    Location:
    Beaufort NC
    I agree completely, while it is often done with tower mounting points, at best you'll need an impact driver to remove stainless bolts after a year or less, at worst, a drill to remove the heads and pray you'll have enough left to grab with vice-grips. I've used readily available G10 sheet (1/2" or thicker depending on load) with great results. Non-corrosive and bonds well with resins when prepped (sanded) properly.

    I don't know the details of your situation but there are several possible options. While it would structurally be better to install the plate on the underside of the core, remembering to add-in crush proofing above the plate where core is left (if any), glassing overhead isn't a happy chore. You could dig down from the topside, insert the plate/crush proofing and re-glass and fair topsides. You HAVE to glass this out over a much larger area than the plate itself or you could pull the whole works out!

    ALl this is based on the need for a smooth, hardware-free surface on the underside. If you have a false overhead in the ceiling below where you plan on mounting the plates, the job is much simpler! 5200 the plates where you want them, drill the holes oversized for the bolt inserts (crush-proofing) and glue them in. You can get some rubber mushroom caps to keep the water out when the dinghy is removed.

    Bill
  9. dan1000

    dan1000 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2006
    Messages:
    58
    Location:
    Newport Beach
    Thanks folks. It sounds like the general consensus is that water in nidacore isn't the problem it was in earlier non closed-cell cores. Perhaps the installer does know what he's talking about after all. I do like the idea of a metal insert to absolutely protect against crushing. While I do have a drop ceiling, there's one chock area where getting access would be difficult due to a supporting wall.

    Based on input so far, it sounds like glued-in metal inserts would be preferable to resin.

    Dan
  10. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2008
    Messages:
    8,546
    Location:
    Miami, FL
    hard to say not knowing what kind of removable chock you're going to install.

    I guess there is some kind of a flush plate for the chock to be attached to.

    in any case, i would not screw the chock but thru bolt them. Screws in glass and foam core is a real lousy idea!!!

    with closed cell foam core, you could get away with using 5200 aroudn the bolts but the right approach is to drill, remove some core, fill with resin/filler then drill again.

    what is under the deck? if a headliner, it's work removing and install a backing plate. Alum would be fine if you are thru bolting.

    if you don't' have any access under the deck, you could use SS. while they don't' spread the loads as well as a plate, most of the efforts are lateral and toggles will be fine.

    again, it really depends on the type of chocks you're going to use.
  11. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2007
    Messages:
    3,311
    Location:
    9114 S. Central Ave
    Just make darn sure that the insert is designed so that the torque required to remove a corroded fastener (because it will corrode) does not cause it to rotate in the core and create a much more difficult situation.
  12. dan1000

    dan1000 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2006
    Messages:
    58
    Location:
    Newport Beach
    I haven't seen the chock yet, but the company is UMT Marine in S. Florida. They were recommended to me by Lifeline Inflatables, from whom I bought the dinghy.

  13. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2008
    Messages:
    8,546
    Location:
    Miami, FL
    reason i was asking was to figure out how are they removable. there should be some kind of thin, low profile plate on which the chocks are attached. I just hope they are no planning on having removable fasteners thru the decks which eventually is sure to lead to water intrusion.

    as you just saw with what your installer was planning on doing, being reputable or recommended is not a guarantee of a job well done :)

    one way to make it removable would be to have SS inserts in the deck, in which a male part latch in. similar with what you see with removable railing on swim platform. with the male part fitting in the recessed fitting on the deck, you can use D rings to strap down the tender to the deck, securing both the tender and also the chocks.

    i don't' know i explained it right... imagine a drink holder and beer bottle sliding in... the beer bottle can't move sideways but the tender straps will hold it down in the hole.

    that will result in a truly removable cradle with nothing to trip over on deck.

    I built a cradle of out starboard for the waverunner we added to the boat i'm running and i'm looking into this to make sure the cradle doesn't slide around, yet leaves no brackets when removed.
  14. dan1000

    dan1000 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2006
    Messages:
    58
    Location:
    Newport Beach
    Thanks Pascal. I asked the installer for a photo of the in-deck portion. I will post the pic when it arrives late tonight.

    Dan
  15. dan1000

    dan1000 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2006
    Messages:
    58
    Location:
    Newport Beach
    I have asked for photos of the underside of the parts that go into the deck, but so far only have pics of the topsides. Here they are.

    Picture 097.jpg

    100_3111.jpg

    100_3109.jpg

    Dan
  16. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2005
    Messages:
    7,427
    Location:
    My Office
    Hi,

    I would be very keen to know what those screws/bolts were attached to on the other side too.

    I would also not be happy if I were the client and the guy doing the job didn't take enough care to clean the 5200 out of the screw slots very well if at all.
  17. jhall767

    jhall767 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2010
    Messages:
    331
    Location:
    Middle River MD

    There is product called tef-gel that will keep the metal from corroding. It is pretty pricey at $20 for a small tube but well worth it.
  18. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2007
    Messages:
    3,311
    Location:
    9114 S. Central Ave
    There is a human condition that leads us to have faith in the spiritual powers and their physical incarnation in the form of potions and magic sauces.

    When metallic components are forced to cohabit in the presence of saltwater, they will, as surely as headaches follow cheap liquor, stick, gall, and create bonds such as no marriage counselor would ever allude.
  19. jhall767

    jhall767 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2010
    Messages:
    331
    Location:
    Middle River MD
    Sounds like you already started on the cheap liquor :D
  20. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2007
    Messages:
    3,311
    Location:
    9114 S. Central Ave
    No, still in the office where it feels like late Friday afternoon.